Listen to this - I need some perspective

gtrjunior

Wannabe
Some of you may know that I'm involved in playing in a kids band. There are 3 adults...me, the drummer and bass player. The singer is the drummer's step daughter (14), the keyboard player is 15 male and the other guitar player is 14 male.
I am finding the guitar players father extremely frustrating to deal with. I should add that the parents are ALWAYS there. But the father is by far the worst of them all.
Now his kid is a good guitar player....a good BEGINNER player. But he seems to think his kid is a rock god.
So 2 things bother me about him (father).
We have done a handful of opening set gigs for some local tribute bands that the drummer had done sound for. From what I understand Massachusetts law says that as long as a drinking establishment is serving food minors can be there. As soon as the kitchen closes they have to go.
There are 2 local bars that have agreed to keep the kitchen open so the kids can play an all-nighter. One is a Chinese food restaurant and the other a regular bar.
Now that father....every damn rehearsal says "when are "we" going to play an all nighter".
First off...we only have about 20 songs. Way too little for all night.
Maybe it's just me but I can't understand why he is so ready to expose his kid to the bar scene. There's a reason kids aren't allowed. My parents would NEVER have let me play in a bar when I was underage. That said they aren't my kids so I guess I shouldn't care....but I do.
Second, every suggestion I make he fights me on. I suggested that we try to add a couple of songs every couple/few weeks that have a small increase in the challenge level so the kids feel a sense of accomplishment instead of picking something that may fail. The guy looked at me like I was a fucking idiot for suggesting that.
Then he says that his kid wants to do "Hail to the king" by avenged sevenfold. I said to him, the intro lick has an economy picking technique that is a bit challenging. I feel that it's a good way to make sure his kid learns a technique that will be a big benefit moving forward, so I wanted to make sure he is playing it correctly. Makes sense right??
He tells me "when he plays to the song it sounds "just like it". Keep in mind that the father is not a musician. He has no clue if his kid is playing it correctly. I've watched the kid play it and he is not playing it correctly....
I get that parents want to believe their kids are something more special than what they may be but I feel like this guy is completely not seeing reality.
His kid is good....nothing more than good. Not spectacular, not special, not gifted....but good.
It's to the point that he is sucking all of the fun out of this for me.
Am I way off base here or what?
 
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You are not way off base.

You are in a very challenging position.

I wish that I could offer some advice. Some parents ruin stuff for everyone else because they are living vicariously through their kids or applying too much pressure to them.
 
He's a nice guy , really but I think you nailed it. He's wanting so much for his kid that I think eventually the kid could resent him for it.
I should add also that I'm not a parent so I don't know what that's like.
 
IDK, it seems like every next up and coming child prodigy guitar god has to be put on the same level as adult musicians for credibility & lore...you know so and so is so good that he's playing clubs as an underaged guitarist in a band of acomplished/pro musicans. Sounds like Dad might be trying to fit his kid into that...who knows.

What's the situation behind the band...it is a little unique to be in a local bar band that's 3/5ths kids?
 
You're in a tough position for sure. This is the musical equivalent to the parent that is convinced their kid is the next Nolan Ryan/Wayne Gretzky/Joe Monatana/etc in youth sports. It has always been this way, and the parents are always convinced they're right...until they see their kid fail miserably in front of everyone, which totally sucks for the kid. I think a lot of times the root of the situation is the parents trying to live their own dreams through their children. :shrug:
 
You're in a tough spot. If I were in your shoes, I'd ask the dad out for dinner, so you can talk to him alone. I would do my best not to come off as a I know better than you, because he won't accept that. I would also let him know how much you appreciate him being involved and make him feel like part of the band, even though you don't. You'll never win him over if you put your foot down and tell him you know better. Maybe even say how you wish your dad was as into your playing as he is to his son's. Flatter him, make him feel like you think he is winning as a dad. Then you steer the conversation into how awesome you think his kid is and how the sky is the limit for him. Then you can point out how long you have been at this and you were once in his sons shoes and you are doing your best to present him with new material that will challenge him but not frustrate him, because that could be the start of him not wanting to play guitar anymore. Hopefully then he sees you are on his son's team and things get better. If not, then you know its a lost cause and you either put up with his shit, or you can move on, but this way you aren't wasting your time anymore on something that is sucking the fun out of it.
 
Tell the dad his job is to support his kid but to take himself out of it? Tell him it's not his band and he's not the musical director. Be polite but firm? Tell him what you told is, the kid is good but not great and to stop pushing so much, he's sucking the joy out of it. Is the kid totally embarrassed by his dad's behavior?
 
IDK, it seems like every next up and coming child prodigy guitar god has to be put on the same level as adult musicians for credibility & lore...you know so and so is so good that he's playing clubs as an underaged guitarist in a band of acomplished/pro musicans. Sounds like Dad might be trying to fit his kid into that...who knows.

What's the situation behind the band...it is a little unique to be in a local bar band that's 3/5ths kids?
So, there is a local music store that has a band program for the kids that take lessons from the store(it costs extra). And they book local gigs at non-bar type venues a few times a year. The drummer has been a mentor in this program for a while now. A few of the kids had expressed an interest in forming a band outside of the program. That's pretty much how it started. The owner of the store isn't happy about it for whatever reason, so these particular kids are dropping out of the program after this session is over in a few weeks.
I agree about this being a unique situation. I think on one level it's good to let the kids experience what a real band functions like....both good and bad aspects. On another level I think kids in a bar band can't lead to good things. The singer who is female is a little cutie pie and it's a matter of time before some drunk pedofile tries hitting on her or worse. I worry about that happening. I would feel terrible if she had her childhood robbed from her from something like that happening. I'm really struggling with the parents being ok with their kids in that environment.
 
You're in a tough position for sure. This is the musical equivalent to the parent that is convinced their kid is the next Nolan Ryan/Wayne Gretzky/Joe Monatana/etc in youth sports. It has always been this way, and the parents are always convinced they're right...until they see their kid fail miserably in front of everyone, which totally sucks for the kid. I think a lot of times the root of the situation is the parents trying to live their own dreams through their children. :shrug:
I really want to see the kids succeed and not fall on their faces. I feel like slow and steady wins the race.
One thing that I don't quite get...the drummer has been playing in bands for 30 years now and I am starting to feel like he just doesn't see the big picture. I realize that as a drummer I can't expect him to understand guitar related techniques but he doesn't seem to even realize that something isn't played correctly. I'm not a drummer but I understand enough about it to know the difference between someone that plays something correctly and someone that is faking it.
 
Tell the dad his job is to support his kid but to take himself out of it? Tell him it's not his band and he's not the musical director. Be polite but firm? Tell him what you told is, the kid is good but not great and to stop pushing so much, he's sucking the joy out of it. Is the kid totally embarrassed by his dad's behavior?
You know, they have a fucked up relationship...last rehearsal the dad was making a joke about something relating to his kid and the kid turns around and tells the father to shut the hell up!! And the father just laughed it off...times have changed I guess, I'd have gotten a smack upside the head for that.
 
You're in a tough spot. If I were in your shoes, I'd ask the dad out for dinner, so you can talk to him alone. I would do my best not to come off as a I know better than you, because he won't accept that. I would also let him know how much you appreciate him being involved and make him feel like part of the band, even though you don't. You'll never win him over if you put your foot down and tell him you know better. Maybe even say how you wish your dad was as into your playing as he is to his son's. Flatter him, make him feel like you think he is winning as a dad. Then you steer the conversation into how awesome you think his kid is and how the sky is the limit for him. Then you can point out how long you have been at this and you were once in his sons shoes and you are doing your best to present him with new material that will challenge him but not frustrate him, because that could be the start of him not wanting to play guitar anymore. Hopefully then he sees you are on his son's team and things get better. If not, then you know its a lost cause and you either put up with his shit, or you can move on, but this way you aren't wasting your time anymore on something that is sucking the fun out of it.
I definitely think the situation warrants a conversation. Like I said, he's a nice guy but he just pushes my buttons a little. Lol
 
You know, they have a fucked up relationship...last rehearsal the dad was making a joke about something relating to his kid and the kid turns around and tells the father to shut the hell up!! And the father just laughed it off...times have changed I guess, I'd have gotten a smack upside the head for that.
The kid is a bit cocky too...I feel like because he is a kid, people have probably told him he is a good player. Whereas if he were an adult most people wouldn't think twice. It's just not expected that a kid can play. So he's got a bit of an inflated ego.
 
It sounds like every team sport my son has played (hockey, soccer, baseball, basketball) There are always a parent or two per team who have unrealistic expectations or an inflated sense of their child's ability. I'm sorry to say but I've never seen these situations resolved to anyone's satisfaction no matter who tries to intervene, from coaches, team managers, other parents and sadly the kid is usually stuck in the middle just wanting to have fun with his friends.. The only difference I see between sports and your situation is that in sports generally there are dozens of other team options. I doubt your young guitarist has the same choice in possible band gigs.

Sorry to be so negative but I really tried to come up with one good example where it worked out.

Best of luck. The best advice I can give comes from my son's hockey club. When tempers begin to show or when the situation becomes tense someone needs to step in and insist that all parties wait 24 hours before addressing the situation again. Most sane people calm down and see the situation differently and hopefully don't say anything they will regret. That I've seen work every time in the short term. Generally then people remain cordial until they move on the next season.
 
The kid is a bit cocky too...I feel like because he is a kid, people have probably told him he is a good player. Whereas if he were an adult most people wouldn't think twice. It's just not expected that a kid can play. So he's got a bit of an inflated ego.
No offense to all the parents around here but I've found that when you don't have a kid in the mix or you're not a recognized authority figure in the situation, your opinion doesn't mean squat to the parents involved....You're wrong about everything and noses get bent because 'youre trying to tell them how to raise their kids'
Tread carefully
 
If you want my opinion, then here it is. The adults need to step aside and the kids need to find teenage replacements and the adults need get the hell out of the band. It's one thing to mentor kids, and it's another thing to basically bring kids into an adult band, which is what this is morphing into. Let the kids be kids. Let them play 16+ shows that their friends can go to like every other teen band in the country. I would limit my involvement to something like one rehearsal a week where you and the other adult musicians come in and listen to a few songs, make suggestions & tips, and let them sink or swim on their own merits.

I coached little league for 8 years, so I have a lot of experience dealing with over the top parents, as well as absentee parents. I also have a son who is a musician, and there is no way I would have allowed him to be in a band situation such as this one. This will not end well.
 
If you want my opinion, then here it is. The adults need to step aside and the kids need to find teenage replacements and the adults need get the hell out of the band. It's one thing to mentor kids, and it's another thing to basically bring kids into an adult band, which is what this is morphing into. Let the kids be kids. Let them play 16+ shows that their friends can go to like every other teen band in the country. I would limit my involvement to something like one rehearsal a week where you and the other adult musicians come in and listen to a few songs, make suggestions & tips, and let them sink or swim on their own merits.

I coached little league for 8 years, so I have a lot of experience dealing with over the top parents, as well as absentee parents. I also have a son who is a musician, and there is no way I would have allowed him to be in a band situation such as this one. This will not end well.
I'm beginning to feel the same way....this just doesn't "feel" right.
 
Sounds like a tough & frustrating situation.

If it were me in your situation, I'd get out of that band pronto. I'd never have the patience to deal with that stuff.

One of my biggest peeves is working with musicians with no ear training- this goes as more for adults than kids. As least with kids they have a valid reason- they're just not there yet. Some will grow up to be very great musicians, but they may need time to just be kids-this usually involves thinking you know everything, when in fact you don't.
 
That sounds like a no win situation and I'd be inclined to walk away.

Even if the venues are doing their thing to make it legit for the kids to play, it's still a bit of a sketchy area and fair enough - I was in a band that played plenty of bar and club shows when we were 16 and 17 but we didn't have weird parents pushing us to do it

- nor did we have a bunch of adults in tow who would be het if anything bad ever happened....
 
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