Why learn about modes?

paulowski

paulowski

Scotch Bonnet
Nothing to do with becoming a better, cooler guitar player......it's so you can join the "We Understand Modes Ha Ha" club :).

Seriously though, I am still awaiting full membership. I understand the theory but there is one aspect that still baffles me.

It is often said that a modal scale is just a major scale starting on a different root. Okay with that. It is often said that "........in that case I am just playing a major scale......so what's the point?"

A very common statement. Consequently, it is often said that you have to, when using a mode, make sufficient reference to the new root, to highlight the fact that it is a modal scale and not the major scale.

So, my question is:

How does a player do that? Just throw in the new tonic note sufficiently often to make the modality clear?

I can't see that, at all. A player would, I suspect, have to figure out his overall note choice to that the new tonic note were used logically, and not just randomly.

Can anyone enlighten me, and possibly others, on this sticking point of mine, please?
 
My understanding is that...it's all to do with the harmony. Modes have no relevance, I believe, to Diatonic music. So for example if I'm improvising over a clearly Diatonic chord progression that goes:

CMaj7/Amin7/Dmin7/G7

...and logically choose to solo using the notes of the CMajor scale...there is nothing I can do to make that sound "modal". Even If I "think" right, C Ionian mode for the CMaj7 chord, A Aeolian for the Amin7 chord, D Dorian for the Dmin7 chord and G Mixolydian for the G7 chord...it's all going to sound like C Major as that's what the underlying harmony is.

Now, if the chord progression is just a vamp on Dmin7......I can play the notes of the CMajor scale with the naturally changed emphasis to D as the root and I'm now playing the D Dorian mode...the function of those "CMaj" Scale notes has changed. It'll sound quite different to CMajor.

Another example would be if the chords are Dmin7/Ebmin7....there's no key there...it's not Diatonic, modes become your friend. You're likely going to use D Dorian and Eb Dorian

I guess what I'm explaining badly, is that there's Diatonic music and Modal music. A lot of heavy metal, where you're typically solo'ing over a chugging power chord is great for modal experiments..playing over an E5..you can play E Dorian, E phrygian, E lydian..anything really, and they will all sound very different.

Honestly the best thing to do to "get this", is to try it. Record yourself playing the above CMaj progression and improvise in CMajor over it..then try just the Dmin7 vamp and use the D Dorian mode D E F G A B C...it'll have a totally different flavour to when you used those exact same notes in the key of CMaj. In fact, try the same licks....Over the Dmin7 vamp, try the Phrygian too, D Eb F G A Bb C (same notes as Bb Major)...and suddenly you're in Spain. :)..or D Aeolian D E F G A Bb C (same as F Major) and it all sounds very classical.

So, in order to hear the sound of D Dorian, it needs to be played against a strong Dmin type progression..NOT C Major.

Hope that all makes some sense. :embarrassed:

Edit: Just thinking, I could make that CMaj progression sound modal if each chord was played for quite a long time before changing...so the players/listeners overall sense of "key" could be messed about with. Probably not practical though. :embarrassed:. Even for Prog. :embarrassed:
 
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Good stuff, Mo!

I'll refer you to this: http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/content.php?121-A-Quick-and-Dirty-Lesson-on-Modes

To me a mode is a way of getting a new sound (or flavor) from a scale. You can modalize any scale and the other two scales that folks do this the most with are the Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor scales. For you to really be using any scale as a specific mode you need to know what the sound that collection of notes is supposed to get for you and learn how to use it. I think I cover that ground pretty well in the video lesson but Mo's point about Diatonic and Modal music is really important.

In other discussions on the subject the Diatonic idea is described as "Functional Harmony", where the chords played together make a functioning key center that no amount of modal fiddle-faddering is going to sound like anything other than the parent diatonic scale. The chords define the key center.

"Non functional Harmony" is where you have a chord that is static long enough that it IS the key center, and you can use the modes and other scales as different colors over that static harmony...
 
jaxn slim said:
Thanks guys. Nice way to break it down into modally-challenged language.
Click to expand...


:grin:

This is the subject of arguments all over teh intertubez. And for many players they really never are in a playing situation where it's actually useful.
 
I really got to grips with this when I tried to learn Jimmy Page's solo from the live version of "No Quarter" from TSRTS...it sounded like he had notes I didn't have on my guitar! :grin:..everything I was listening to at the time was Pentatonic and I could recognise that sound and those licks by ear..but Page's "weird jazzy" licks as I thought of them..I had NO IDEA what was going on.

When I actually worked out the solo..and realised they were all notes in C Major...but played against a long Dminor vamp played on JPJ's keyboards...it all started to make sense. Years later I was told that was called "Dorian". :embarrassed:..I then had the same experience with the Phrygian mode via Uli Roth's "Sails of Charon".

A practical example:

We did this jam a while back...it's a Red Ant Bb minor vamp and I used the Bb Dorian mode throughout..which has the same notes as Ab Major..but sounds totally different as you can hear, there's a lot of emphasis on the Maj6 (G) that really sounds "Dorian" to me.

http://www.box.net/shared/zfllpc72ot
 
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Hey....these are good answers........I read stuff I haven't read before. I still have to check Mark's video....but many thanks to Mo.........you are good at this! A natural talent for de-mystifying the modes. Have you got the time and inclination to go the whole hog? Start to finish?

Mo's Complete Guide to the Modes for the likes of Paulowski?

Many have tried, and many fail by getting stuck up their own backsides somewhere along the way.

Think "Everest"................."because it's there".
 
paulowski said:
Hey....these are good answers........I read stuff I haven't read before. I still have to check Mark's video....but many thanks to Mo.........you are good at this! A natural talent for de-mystifying the modes. Have you got the time and inclination to go the whole hog? Start to finish?

Mo's Complete Guide to the Modes for the likes of Paulowski?

Many have tried, and many fail by getting stuck up their own backsides somewhere along the way.

Think "Everest"................."because it's there".
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul!..I'm glad it was useful. I'm a big believer in hearing things rather than reading about them..:embarrassed:..so I'll try and put together some short, practical examples over the next weekend or so, demonstrating what these things actually sound like in practice and a bit more about when you might want to use them..hopefully as a complement to Mark's excellent vids.
 
I'm just gonna riff offa the thread title: "Why learn about modes?" Why feel for nodes?
EDIT: If I keep using this technical a domain and function more on computer I might be catching a code.

as always, John Watt
 
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