What is the first step for a beginning improvisor?
- Thread starter Mark Wein
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Yngtchie Blacksteen
Helper
I don't remember what I did back when I first started, as I've always been improvising, but I think the most important thing is to simply know the chords and know beforehand which scale to use. Then it's time to move on to chord tones ie arpeggios.
AMIRITE, or could the order be turned around?
AMIRITE, or could the order be turned around?
Alex_DeLarge
Little Hot Wing
I began playing random shit (on a scale) on backing tracks, but mostly it sounded like shit. Now that I'm more into chord tones and learning what notes each chord has my "improvising" sounds less shitty 
shoeless
Riffin'
Yep, same here. I think that's pretty common and plenty of examples and blues & rock backing tracks that suit that approach.
I started lead playing by copying solo's from Page, Blackmore, Schenker etc...and when improvising would then kind of stitch licks together from all the solo's I learned...I figured out how to transpose them into all keys, and just "adjusted" them to fit whatever I was playing over..which kind of gave me ideas for how I could develop my own style. I was doing that before I knew what a Pentatonic scale actually was. ...not saying that's the best approach at all, but it got me started. 
....one possible advantage is that you're playing "licks" or musical phrases rather than running up and down scales..which a lot of beginners naturally tend to do.
...not saying that's the best approach at all, but it got me started. ....one possible advantage is that you're playing "licks" or musical phrases rather than running up and down scales..which a lot of beginners naturally tend to do.
I make it a point to early on teach the idea of motifs, repeating ideas, sequencing ideas, etc. Anything to get students to stop running scales and instead take and idea and stick with it for a moment before moving on.
Also, improvising in time with rhythm is another big thing. Most people tend to just lose all sense of time and tempo when the solo. I give them a rhythm to play, and let them make up the notes, but only playing one or two rhythms. This usually helps their groove immensely.
For people who are paying over changes but not making it, I work with arpeggios and playing using only arpeggios.
Also, improvising in time with rhythm is another big thing. Most people tend to just lose all sense of time and tempo when the solo. I give them a rhythm to play, and let them make up the notes, but only playing one or two rhythms. This usually helps their groove immensely.
For people who are paying over changes but not making it, I work with arpeggios and playing using only arpeggios.
hobo
simple guitar player
actually that is a great question, unfortunatly I didn't have a teacher to ask, so after all these years of stuggling I think I found my own answer:
1. find 3 chords that fit into a key ( I guess that is what it is called)
2. find the notes of that key
3. lay out a backing track using 4/4 simple down strokes one, two, three, four on a 12 bar (something)
4. relax and just have fun making mistakes till something comes together musically (for me that has taken................) :( but these days I'm glad I
discovered it on my own, of course with the help of the internet, I know can look up the notes I need to know in a given key
1. find 3 chords that fit into a key ( I guess that is what it is called)
2. find the notes of that key
3. lay out a backing track using 4/4 simple down strokes one, two, three, four on a 12 bar (something)
4. relax and just have fun making mistakes till something comes together musically (for me that has taken................) :( but these days I'm glad I
discovered it on my own, of course with the help of the internet, I know can look up the notes I need to know in a given key
Alex_DeLarge
Little Hot Wing
I'm going to say knowing what chord you are on and relating that chord to a function in a key. Because if guitar one is playing over that scale with a flat 6 and guitar 2 and the bass are comping that chord and using that major 6 in any way, you run into trouble. There's bad sounding notes to hit, of course, weather you are both playing the same 6th, 2nd, whatever, but knowing that at least gives you room to breathe without trying fake some sort of chromatic elaboration.
GreenAsJade
Just this guy, you know?
I started with the "here's the pentatonic boxes, and heres a backing track try some licks" approach and it was really frustrating and never really got me anywhere.
Then I went on to transcribing solos I love, and this seemed to open up the world of improvisation: starting with a solo you like, transcribing it, then finding other variants of it (live versions) transcribing and learning those, then mixing them up and suddenly you are improvising.
Not that I'm especially good at improvising now, far from it I'm still a beginner. But in answering the question "what works to get a beginner started", this is what worked for me.
YMMV
GaJ
Then I went on to transcribing solos I love, and this seemed to open up the world of improvisation: starting with a solo you like, transcribing it, then finding other variants of it (live versions) transcribing and learning those, then mixing them up and suddenly you are improvising.
Not that I'm especially good at improvising now, far from it I'm still a beginner. But in answering the question "what works to get a beginner started", this is what worked for me.
YMMV
GaJ
Could you post an example of that please?? (only if you have the time of course)
An example: In each measure, play four eighth notes, and hold the last for the rest of the measure, like "1 + 2 +" and hold it for 3, 4. Do this in every measure. You can pick whichever notes you want, but stick to only that rhythm. Or, stick to only that and one or two other simple, 1 measure rhythms.
Phlat Phive
First Position Strummer
The first time I thought "hey, now I sound like a guitarist" was when I started improvising in the pentatonic scale. This made getting into improv fun, inspiring, and easy. I think that's very important for someone just getting into the idea of playing whatever he wants.
paulowski
Scotch Bonnet
Along the lines of what Poparad was getting at...........
Take the easy route...choose three notes, say, that "fit" the tune, and see what you can do with those. Endless possibilities.....don't forget that all music involves a great deal of repetition, and repetition with slight changes only......nuances.
When you feel you've done all you can with three notes, throw in, say, a lower note, and see what possibilities that gives you. Then stay with four notes, but change that lower note to a higher note (above the first three), and proceed accordingly.
Once you get good with five notes, you could stand in for Clapton at a gig.
Take the easy route...choose three notes, say, that "fit" the tune, and see what you can do with those. Endless possibilities.....don't forget that all music involves a great deal of repetition, and repetition with slight changes only......nuances.
When you feel you've done all you can with three notes, throw in, say, a lower note, and see what possibilities that gives you. Then stay with four notes, but change that lower note to a higher note (above the first three), and proceed accordingly.
Once you get good with five notes, you could stand in for Clapton at a gig.
Jeremy_Green
Jolokian
For me its about teaching a scale (typically the pentatonic in the first stages)
Then find a song that uses the technique and lift it - then point out the use of the learned scale.
Seeing how others use that scale gives ideas as to how you can apply it to get the sounds you hear. You need to learn a LOT of other people's ideas before you understand the intervals within the scale. Plus it teaches you the subtle nuances of slides and hammers and vibrato. Once you can command your hands to execute then through osmosis many of these ideas just come out.
So its:
Teach scale
Then application through examples (lots)
Then next scale form
Then application through examples (lots)
As a side note -
Improvising is A LOT about using your ears. So learning other peoples stuff using only your ears is very very important. I know you guys mostly know where I stand on Tabs. For those that dont I see them as a crutch. It's just way easier to search out the Tab. But the gains you get from it are minute compared to what you gain by doing it yourself. These days there is little excuse for an intermediate guitarist. With the technology of slow-down software it really has made the job WAAAAY easier. USE YOUR EARS. If you want to be the best you can be USE YOUR EARS. Teach people to use their ears. Ask people how to use your ears - can you hear the theme developing here : ) Sorry for the rant but to me THAT holds the keys to the kingdom.
Then find a song that uses the technique and lift it - then point out the use of the learned scale.
Seeing how others use that scale gives ideas as to how you can apply it to get the sounds you hear. You need to learn a LOT of other people's ideas before you understand the intervals within the scale. Plus it teaches you the subtle nuances of slides and hammers and vibrato. Once you can command your hands to execute then through osmosis many of these ideas just come out.
So its:
Teach scale
Then application through examples (lots)
Then next scale form
Then application through examples (lots)
As a side note -
Improvising is A LOT about using your ears. So learning other peoples stuff using only your ears is very very important. I know you guys mostly know where I stand on Tabs. For those that dont I see them as a crutch. It's just way easier to search out the Tab. But the gains you get from it are minute compared to what you gain by doing it yourself. These days there is little excuse for an intermediate guitarist. With the technology of slow-down software it really has made the job WAAAAY easier. USE YOUR EARS. If you want to be the best you can be USE YOUR EARS. Teach people to use their ears. Ask people how to use your ears - can you hear the theme developing here : ) Sorry for the rant but to me THAT holds the keys to the kingdom.
I do agree with Jeremy's whole post,(though I learned the song first and then the scale!) but the above part I think can't be overstated. If I've improvised something well, then it's because I was actually listening properly..to the track, and to myself...I've actually heard what I just played, and then I hear what I want to play next..and played it, and then heard it and then heard the next bit and then...and so on..it's very exciting when that happens...even if you don't quite play exactly what you hear, just trying is fun.. It's like composing on the spot, but you have to LISTEN.
If I can't clearly hear in my head what I just let my fingers do..it's almost certainly complete crap.
Jeremy_Green
Jolokian
Me too Mo - songs first.
The reason I said start with the scale is because the question was specifically about teaching Improv - least that was my understanding. Therefore the focus shifts to the tools required for soloing - scales. Usually students memorize the pattern, then are flummoxed as to what to do with it. That is when I show them a solo from a song they like. That way they are aware of the scale shape (and see how it's used) more than if I showed them just the solo riffs alone.
Sayin?
GreenAsJade
Just this guy, you know?
I totally have this piece missing and wish I didn't - I think you're absolutely right.
I can learn scales. And I can learn solos by ear. These are both good, but I've missed the step of connecting the two (and the underlying chords) and I can see how this is a great big hole.
If nothing else, I feel like this is the one area where I could do with a teacher right now. You can do much on your own with books and internet advice (great advice), but I'm struggling with learning this connection in a practical way.
I know, I know, "if you're serious, get a teacher".
GaJ
For sure.
I totally have this piece missing and wish I didn't - I think you're absolutely right.
I can learn scales. And I can learn solos by ear. These are both good, but I've missed the step of connecting the two (and the underlying chords) and I can see how this is a great big hole.
If nothing else, I feel like this is the one area where I could do with a teacher right now. You can do much on your own with books and internet advice (great advice), but I'm struggling with learning this connection in a practical way.
I know, I know, "if you're serious, get a teacher".
GaJ
GaJ...if it's any comfort, I had a similiar problem. When I was finally shown a pentatonic scale..I actually could not for the life of me see how this was the basis for all the rock licks I'd learned. Now, I'm not a teacher by any means, so this may sound confusing but I think what threw me was that I learned licks/musical phrases by ear..with no knowledge of what the notes actually were. At that stage if you'd asked me to play a "G" everywhere..I'd be stuck. So, I built up a large vocabulary without knowing the alphabet!.
Then, when I was shown the pentatonic box(by another guitarist, not a teacher)...that was the problem, it was a "box"..a "shape" a visual thing. I played the notes and didn't even consider that I could mix up the order, only play some of the notes, mix in other notes..I just thought I had to play the scale.
It took me quite a while to "see" my licks in that "box"..and then I could see the chords/arps too.
I should have got a teacher really.