I may be out of a job soon.

[Sad Navigator]

That's right.

Somehow this country got to be very focused on making as much money as possible
by doing as little as possible.

You don't get to be great by doing that. Sigh.

I wasn't completely being sarcastic but the whole IT infrastructure that american business relies upon
basically came out of space research.

I know there are some that believe we can do without manned space flight and it's certainly safer
to have robotic craft involved but it's not the same.

Well, "more money out of less work" is simply maximizing reward while reducing risk. We're told all the time by the lords of capitalism that this is a "good thing." Are you all a bunch of commie Nazi socialist Euroscum all of a sudden?

The constructed ideas about "progress" and "American exceptionalism" makes it unpopular/difficult to "roll back" a lot of these huge liberal-type technocratic projects. (I mean, imagine the *shock* and *horror* if we actually rolled defense spending back to something resembling a reasonable sum.) But we're starting to feel the financial pinch of managing and maintaining all of these huge, complicated bureaucratic systems so politicians are looking to save their skins by moving the resources to the areas most likely to keep their little bit of the bureaucracy afloat. And the space race doesn't impact the daily circumstances of most people in an obvious and tangible way.

In short, "meh." I'm sure plenty of French, Ecuadorian, Thai, and Kenyan folks manage to live perfectly meaningful lives even though their country isn't tops at flinging monkeys into space.

 

[Tiltsta]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to take this down the road of the political party madness of HC. I apologize if I sounded like those knuckleheads. I just think science and technology is a much better way to invest money for a return than a high speed rail system. If I worked in the train industry I would be bitching for the rail system.

 

[Sad Navigator]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to take this down the road of the political party madness of HC. I apologize if I sounded like those knuckleheads. I just think science and technology is a much better way to invest money for a return than a high speed rail system. If I worked in the train industry I would be bitching for the rail system.

But most of us are way more likely to ride on a train than go to space.

 

[Mark Wein]

But most of us are way more likely to ride on a train than go to space.

This could become a circular argument, though. Without the technology we won't have the "high speed" nature that would make the trains worthwhile or something like that. The various government programs being cut wouldn't spin off consumer technologies that would create jobs and make this a better place to live.......WE WOULDN"T HAVE TANG IF THERE WASN'T A SPACE PROGRAM!Q!!!!!!!!!


































I'm being facetious but I think I agree with Grits' comment above that it's these endeavors that make this country one of the best places in the world to live and I'd hate to lose that.

 

[Sad Navigator]

This could become a circular argument, though. Without the technology we won't have the "high speed" nature that would make the trains worthwhile or something like that. The various government programs being cut wouldn't spin off consumer technologies that would create jobs and make this a better place to live.......WE WOULDN"T HAVE TANG IF THERE WASN'T A SPACE PROGRAM!Q!!!!!!!!!




I'm being facetious but I think I agree with Grits' comment above that it's these endeavors that make this country one of the best places in the world to live and I'd hate to lose that.

Why look to the government to subsidize technology? I mean, if technological innovation is so good and people all like it so much, there must be a way to privatize this innovation, right? Did the government have to invent the steam engine and the cotton gin?

Also, why are we in such a "high speed" rush? Could we allow ourselves more leisurely train rides if we weren't shooting tax money into space? Isn't "newer/faster/smaller/shinier = better" just one way of looking at things? To what extent has consumerism trained us to look at things this way -- thereby creating a justification for publicly-subsidized innovation that is then handed over to consumer capitalism to be profit-ized?

 

[Punchy]

But most of us are way more likely to ride on a train than go to space.

Really? The only people who ride trains around here are hobos and muggers

If PMC100's figure is right at about $18B for NASA's budget, that is a small small piece of the pie compared to other crap the gov't spends money on. Hell, during the last election, the geniuses in California approved a high-speed rail from Sac, to SF, to LA costing over $1B just to get the damn thing built. Tax dollars going toward something most people won't use, some people will use once or twice a year, and a few people might use somewhat regularly.

 

[Sad Navigator]

Really? The only people who ride trains around here are hobos and muggers

If PMC100's figure is right at about $18B for NASA's budget, that is a small small piece of the pie compared to other crap the gov't spends money on. Hell, during the last election, the geniuses in California approved a high-speed rail from Sac, to SF, to LA costing over $1B just to get the damn thing built. Tax dollars going toward something most people won't use, some people will use once or twice a year, and a few people might use somewhat regularly.

I used to ride the train 5-6 days a week. Where I live now there is no train, but if there were one I'd ride it 3-5 days a week (depending on my school schedule). I wager that Howie rides the train a lot.

 

[mattburnside]

Really? The only people who ride trains around here are hobos and muggers

I am shocked--SHOCKED! to learn that people in California love their cars.

It took forever for us to get light rail in Dallas, and I would use it if it started or stopped near where I need to go.

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

I used to ride the train 5-6 days a week. Where I live now there is no train, but if there were one I'd ride it 3-5 days a week (depending on my school schedule). I wager that Howie rides the train a lot.

daily.

there needs to be more/better public transportation in this country. flying everywhere is a pain in the ass.

 

[Mrs.P]

Don't get me wrong I want a fast train, but I also want my higher sciences. I think they should go hand in hand. Those bullet trains require a lot of technology as well. Nasa is one of my favorite gov't groups, right next to the Treasury of course.

 

[Sad Navigator]

I also want my higher sciences. I think they should go hand in hand.

What's a "higher science?" Why is this hierarchical? Isn't agricultural science simply a different field than nano-technology or quantum physics? Or is it "lower" because of a value judgment you're making?

 

[Punchy]

That's my point though. . .we've got light rails set up, and they're severely underutilized. WHY SPEND MORE MONEY ON A RAIL SYSTEM? NY (and most cities) are a completely different case than a bullet running 450 miles across farmland and desert.

Meh. All I'm saying is if we as a country lose the self-contained ability to send a man to space, it's a damn shame. The money shouldn't be an issue. That's the only reason I brought up Cali's billion dollar train.

 

[mattburnside]

Meh. All I'm saying is if we as a country lose the self-contained ability to send a man to space, it's a damn shame.

I have to agree. I can think of several people I want to send into space, right now. It would be the ultimate version of wishing somebody into the cornfield.

 

[Sad Navigator]

That's my point though. . .we've got light rails set up, and they're severely underutilized. WHY SPEND MORE MONEY ON A RAIL SYSTEM? NY (and most cities) are a completely different case than a bullet running 450 miles across farmland and desert.

Meh. All I'm saying is if we as a country lose the self-contained ability to send a man to space, it's a damn shame. The money shouldn't be an issue. That's the only reason I brought up Cali's billion dollar train.

If there were a bullet train between KC and Chicago, I'd take it.

Why is it a shame if we cannot all-by-ourselves send a person to a place where there is no air? What do we need to do in space that requires a person up there doing it?

 

[Prages]

Also, why are we in such a "high speed" rush? Could we allow ourselves more leisurely train rides if we weren't shooting tax money into space? Isn't "newer/faster/smaller/shinier = better" just one way of looking at things? To what extent has consumerism trained us to look at things this way -- thereby creating a justification for publicly-subsidized innovation that is then handed over to consumer capitalism to be profit-ized?

I'm all about leisure, but speaking from personal experience:

I once took a train from Charleston, WV to Washington, DC. I can drive that in less than 6 hours. The train ride was supposed to take 8 hours.

Roughly 16 hours after I boarded the train, I got off at Union Station. Of course, it was 4 in the morning, the metro was long since closed for the night.

Thanks, AmTrak!

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

I'm all about leisure, but speaking from personal experience:

I once took a train from Charleston, WV to Washington, DC. I can drive that in less than 6 hours. The train ride was supposed to take 8 hours.

Roughly 16 hours after I boarded the train, I got off at Union Station. Of course, it was 4 in the morning, the metro was long since closed for the night.

Thanks, AmTrak!

that's what happens when you underfund AmTrak. give it proper funding and maybe it'll work the way it is supposed to.

it's gotta be better than bailing out airlines.

 

[baimun]

One of the strengths of the United States is also one of it's biggest vulnerabilities.

We are so diverse ethnically, environmentally, financially, educationally.... what interests a hispanic fisherman in Florida is far removed from the white farmer in Nebraska and further still from the Korean student in Detroit, or the black gay dancer in hollywood.

I read about hard nosed education reformers who have no patience or interest in art or music while they're trying to enable a larger percentage of inner-city schools to be able to read or have a higher than 25% graduation rate.... that mentallity isn't in the same galaxy as a suburban middle class family whose kid is in the national honor society but can only afford a junior college instead of an Ivy League school that they know their child could excel in if given a chance.

We've grown up in a Me-First society and now the group as a whole is sufferring in all economic, education, exploration, and other fronts... yet the closest thing to a common ground we can come is waving an american flag before a sporting event.

I don't have a "right" answer for all of this.... but I do believe that it will take a less selfish NATIONAL PRIDE type of mind-shift to help the country as a whole get back on track for prosperity. National high speed rail, a Space Program, Education and Health reform are ALL important... yet most americans only approve of it only if it won't interfere with them being able to buy the luxury car they want or get a Starbucks coffee every morning.

 

[Mark Wein]

I love trains. Thats one of my favorite things about being on the east coast when I visit family. Between taking the trains and subway in New York to taking the train between there and Rhode Island to see my brother I am in love with that form of travel.

Here we have Metrolink but it really doesn't go anywhere that I need to go and getting from a station to anyplace else requires a car anyway.

I hate California.

 

[Punchy]

If there were a bullet train between KC and Chicago, I'd take it.

Why is it a shame if we cannot all-by-ourselves send a person to a place where there is no air? What do we need to do in space that requires a person up there doing it?

We're going to continue going to space, we'll just pay Russia, or India, or who knows where to send our astronauts up. Why not keep it "in-house" and keep Americans working, innovating, discovering?

Here's a partial list of things they're doing in space that we can't do here:
ISS Experiments

But if you didn't know about that list of experiments, you don't care anyway, so why ask?

 

[Mrs.P]

One of the strengths of the United States is also one of it's biggest vulnerabilities.

We are so diverse ethnically, environmentally, financially, educationally.... what interests a hispanic fisherman in Florida is far removed from the white farmer in Nebraska and further still from the Korean student in Detroit, or the black gay dancer in hollywood.

I read about hard nosed education reformers who have no patience or interest in art or music while they're trying to enable a larger percentage of inner-city schools to be able to read or have a higher than 25% graduation rate.... that mentallity isn't in the same galaxy as a suburban middle class family whose kid is in the national honor society but can only afford a junior college instead of an Ivy League school that they know their child could excel in if given a chance.

We've grown up in a Me-First society and now the group as a whole is sufferring in all economic, education, exploration, and other fronts... yet the closest thing to a common ground we can come is waving an american flag before a sporting event.

I don't have a "right" answer for all of this.... but I do believe that it will take a less selfish NATIONAL PRIDE type of mind-shift to help the country as a whole get back on track for prosperity. National high speed rail, a Space Program, Education and Health reform are ALL important... yet most americans only approve of it only if it won't interfere with them being able to buy the luxury car they want or get a Starbucks coffee every morning.

WOW. I may have to change my opinion about you. That was very well stated.