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Your assumption is going in the wrong direction. When buy commodities, volume is king. Do to the sheer volume of guitars coming out of Korean and Asia as a whole. I would be willing to bet they actually consume more wood than most if not all of the the US operations. Many of them are not buying the same grades of wood either.

I kinda covered this in my response to Doug, but buying in bulk doesn't mean buying the best stuff. If the bottom line is to make the most guitars for the least amount of money, they would in theory be buying huge quantities of wood at the best prices they can get and not be concerned with the resonance of the wood, the size of the blanks, the amount of pieces they're going to glue together to make a body, etc.

I assume that companies like Reverend, Deusenburg, and others that have contracted Korean companies to built guitars to their specs have delineated their wants and expectations at a very high level and are getting their goals met more often than not with the final product. I assume PRS, Veillette, and other companies that are getting their import line built in Korean have similar expectations, but don't want the "SE" product to outshine the US built product. So goals are different.
 
(part 2)
Make a plan


Should you become a luither? To be or not to be... that really is the question. I've been thinking about this with the soon arrival of my first child, if he was to ask me the same thing or want to take over the family business.

First off make a plan. Set a goal. Research that goal. Ask people who work in that field. Read EVERYTHING you can. Obsess over it. Drive your friends to the point of desertion, make your parents wish they had ear plugs and stop just short of making your significant other want to bean you over the head. This applies to whatever you might devote your life to.

Second, go to school. College, trade school, community college ect. You will invariably learn important life and social skills there that will always help your future endeavors. If you have a goal, you'll find classes that will directly apply to what you want (and make the ones that don't bearable).
Holy shit, there's so much more than I realized. I really appreciate that you take the time out of your super busy days to answer our questions and address some of the issues that get brought up on this forum.
 
Holy shit, there's so much more than I realized. I really appreciate that you take the time out of your super busy days to answer our questions and address some of the issues that get brought up on this forum.

As much as I dig making guitars, no way I'd want to try to make a living at it.
 
I kinda covered this in my response to Doug, but buying in bulk doesn't mean buying the best stuff. If the bottom line is to make the most guitars for the least amount of money, they would in theory be buying huge quantities of wood at the best prices they can get and not be concerned with the resonance of the wood, the size of the blanks, the amount of pieces they're going to glue together to make a body, etc.

I assume that companies like Reverend, Deusenburg, and others that have contracted Korean companies to built guitars to their specs have delineated their wants and expectations at a very high level and are getting their goals met more often than not with the final product. I assume PRS, Veillette, and other companies that are getting their import line built in Korean have similar expectations, but don't want the "SE" product to outshine the US built product. So goals are different.

True but I think you'd be surprised. First off, the "good wood / bad wood" tends to get over played IMO. Secondly, when you buy as much as those guys do, you can afford to throw away more too :wink:

I spend about 10-20k a year on Spanish Cedar alone. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't really buy you all that much wood. I'm picky with what I work with but I'll be god damned if I'm going to throw anything away that I don't absolutely have too :wink:
 
I just saw the young guitarist in Blondie playing one of your guitars at the Isle of Wright 2013 show on Palladia...pretty danged cool!
 
I just saw the young guitarist in Blondie playing one of your guitars at the Isle of Wright 2013 show on Palladia...pretty danged cool!

Tommy is amazing. That guy has serious talent.

The entire band are just the nicest people. Debbie, Clem, Leigh, Chris and everyone else involved is just extraordinarily kind and generous to my wife and I whenever we get to hang out. Love those guys!
 
Tommy is amazing. That guy has serious talent.

The entire band are just the nicest people. Debbie, Clem, Leigh, Chris and everyone else involved is just extraordinarily kind and generous to my wife and I whenever we get to hang out. Love those guys!
They were all very sweet to us when my wife and I met them here in Nashville.
 
Glad to hear it! Love those guys.

So- anyone have questions? I'm drawing a minor blank for the moment. lol
What's your favorite way to make a recessed Floyd Rose lose its ability to pull up? I've played some that have those small L-brackets or other stoppers in them (including my own MeanStreet Exile), but they all still feel sort of wiggly and not at all solid like my preferred non-recessed setup.
 
What's your favorite way to make a recessed Floyd Rose lose its ability to pull up? I've played some that have those small L-brackets or other stoppers in them (including my own MeanStreet Exile), but they all still feel sort of wiggly and not at all solid like my preferred non-recessed setup.

I'll be honest, I almost never deal with floyds so I really don't have an answer for you.
 
Tommy is amazing. That guy has serious talent.

The entire band are just the nicest people. Debbie, Clem, Leigh, Chris and everyone else involved is just extraordinarily kind and generous to my wife and I whenever we get to hang out. Love those guys!

You've hung out with Deborah Harry and members of Blondie?? eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2
 
You've hung out with Deborah Harry and members of Blondie?? eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2eek2

Yep, multiple times now. Tommy Kessler plays our guitars (her other guitar player besides Chris). They are just the sweetest people around.

One of these days I have to try to build something in the low 5's or upper 4's for weight for Chris to see if I can't sway him away from his XoX.

Funny story, 3 years ago we hung out and saw them in SF touring with Devo. Well my wife was 8 months pregnant at the time and Devo was so loud that Theresa started having early contractions! We had to move waaaaay back (for max) to settle down. Interesting side note, backstage passes and a pregnant wife will not only get you anywhere at a show, but you get really wonderful treatment from the venue staff :wink: It's like wearing a wedding dress when you check in at a hotel (if you're a woman atleast! LOL)
 
Hi Doug...
I grew up in my father's cabinet shop and have a deep love of wood and woodworking, although I lack most of the requisite skills and experience to do what you do in my small garage shop...so I have the utmost respect for what you do...but enough about me...

As you may have noticed from your time on our forum we are somewhat preoccupied with the price of guitars, particularly those built by the small shop luthiers lke yourself...so would you be kind enough to talk about whta it actually takes to build an instrument from the ground up as far as man-hours is concerned...how long does it take you to go from raw wood to finished instrument? How many people are involved, just yourself or do you have a staff? How many days does the process take, and how many hours a day do you put in? What is themost time consuming part? (I'm guessing sanding and finishing) What's the most tedious? How often do you have to scrap a piece and start over?

What I'm going for is to show non-woodworkers how much time goes into what you do, and how that time affects the price...

...or you van tell me to fuck off and mind my own business, which is fine too...I'm used to it...

:Wave:
 
Jelloman- Doug did go into some of that already, and it's great if he goes into greater detail as you requested.

For me, the question comes down to exactly what is the real difference between a piece of wood whittled down to an exquisite piece over countless hours, and one cut to exacting specs on a CNC in a few minutes. What, when all the basic hardware; bridge, tuners, pickups and electronics are accounted for, separates a $500 dollar guitar from a $3000 guitar from a $10,000 guitar? At some point the value goes from tangible to ethereal. Once the wood is shaped and smooth, the frets are smooth and level, and the guitar plays perfectly, what is the real difference?

I am in no way making light of all the hard work that he or other builders put into the guitars they build, but somewhere along the line it just seems like some of them charge as much as they believe they can. What makes a $5000 custom worth roughly twice as much as Doug charges for his?
 
Hi Doug...
I grew up in my father's cabinet shop and have a deep love of wood and woodworking, although I lack most of the requisite skills and experience to do what you do in my small garage shop...so I have the utmost respect for what you do...but enough about me...

As you may have noticed from your time on our forum we are somewhat preoccupied with the price of guitars, particularly those built by the small shop luthiers lke yourself...so would you be kind enough to talk about whta it actually takes to build an instrument from the ground up as far as man-hours is concerned...how long does it take you to go from raw wood to finished instrument? How many people are involved, just yourself or do you have a staff? How many days does the process take, and how many hours a day do you put in? What is themost time consuming part? (I'm guessing sanding and finishing) What's the most tedious? How often do you have to scrap a piece and start over?

What I'm going for is to show non-woodworkers how much time goes into what you do, and how that time affects the price...

...or you van tell me to fuck off and mind my own business, which is fine too...I'm used to it...

:Wave:


This is a fairly loaded question, but I'll do my best. Lets focus on one of my median guitars such as a Starliner or Daylighter Standard. This really right about the middle of my lineup. Lets start with guitar time and cost first, then focus on what most people really ignore about business: the real cost of owning a business:

The reality of building a guitar is yes, the "costs" are relatively low. Parts, hardware and a case with all tier one components (tonepros, sperzel, hipshot, CTS, switchcraft, boutique pickups, G&G case or mono or reunion blues ect ect) is roughly anywhere from 400-700 bucks depending on how you slice it. On a guitar to guitar basis, wood is relatively a small portion ranging from 50-500 dollars depending on how exotic you get. So right now you anywhere between 500 to a 1000 dollars before putting one tool to wood.

Now, an average carved top of mine has 2 hours in material prep, 45 minutes in CNC time for the body, roughly 120 minutes for the neck (including fretboard machining, lasering the headstock veneers ect but not including glue up times). Now this is ROUGH machining. Bodies have generally an additional 90-120 minutes of sanding, drilling and prep work, necks have 30-60 minutes of leveling and fretting and 30-60 minutes final shaping, sanding and fitting.

So we are at roughly 8-10 hours at the point the neck gets set to the body of hands on work. This is a low estimate likely.

Once the neck is set, I have roughly 60-90 minutes of sanding to prep for sealer. Then we start the finishing process. This is tough to judge because it only takes 5-10 minutes to spray a sealer coat but we can only do this once a day. So we spray a sealer wash coat, next day grain fill (15 minutes), next day sand all the filler flat (30 minutes), sealer coat (5 minutes), wait 24 hours then sand 80% flat (30 minutes), sealer coat (5 minutes), wait 24 hours then sand 100% flat (if possible, if not add an additional 2 days and 35 minutes), mask the back off (15 minutes) and burst the top (15-30 minutes), wait 24 hours, mask the top and bindings off (20 minutes) and shoot the back color (5 minutes), peel tape and clean up bindings (5-20 minutes), spray tinted toner coat then move onto clear (15 minutes), wait 24 hours and scuff then spray clear (15 minutes), wait 48 hours- level sand with 800 (30 minutes) and final round of clear (15 minutes). Then wait 7 days, level sand (60 minutes) and buff (30 minutes) entire guitar.

So that brings the entire finishing process to: ~385 minutes or nearly 7 hours over 2 weeks. Minimum. If everything goes perfect first try. About 80% of the time it does but not every time.

Now we're near 20 hours, lets round down to 18. Hour hours, at Jiffy Lube shop rate of 110 an hour and we are just about 2k already. So 2k in time, plus 1k in hardware and incidentals and we are now 3k (my Starliner STD is 3850 so we have some more to go).

OK, now the guitar is ready for fretwork, assembly ect. Fretwork generally runs about 60 minutes from untapping and clean up through level, recrown, polishing and edge work. Occasionally we get a fret that is springing (sometimes will have something trapped in the slot underneath) but generally goes pretty smoothly. Of course, we won't know this till the end.

Wiring, assembly and setup generally takes me about 4-5 hours more. Seems to be pretty consistent that I can put two guitars together a day if I'm uninterrupted and the fretwork is already done. Then I'll play the guitar for 5-30 minutes, make final adjustments and fix anything that crops up.

So our total "everything goes perfectly" time is about 26-30 hours or about 2900 at the Jiffy Lube rate plus hardware and we are at 3900. A thing goes perfectly timeline rarely happens. I know from 6 years of tracking that generally our carved top STD will be closer to 40 hours. Heck, I lose at least an hour just filling out spec sheets, COA's and shipping labels/boxes.

For reference, this is a shop with two CNC's running about 80% efficiency in terms of top carve or neck profile carving (we could run them at a higher resolution for less sanding or hand work but it takes longer than sanding them out), a laser, top tier sander, planer and saws (SCM). I have one 2.5-3 day a week employee, he is now doing the necks damn near start to finish (I do the final carve/sanding and final fretwork, he does everything else). Otherwise, it's just me.

Now this is where most people get hung up. Two areas: "Well shit it's only a XXX amount in parts in hardware, why is the guitar so expensive?!" Time. "What 110 an hour? That's outrageous!!" . First of all, shouldn't I be figuring my time is worth at least as much as Jiffy Lube? Secondly, I don't make a 110 / hour, THATS what the business *should* be making to keep the doors open. That's not even profitable for me because I rarely hit those numbers for what I charge. Hell, if I was really able to stay on 100-150 / hour we'd barely even be profitable still.

The reality is, a business is a giant black hole that takes all your money and time, slaps you in the face with it then burns it. Let me share some spotlight on this:

Here's a list of equipment that I own and have acquired over the years and their costs:
Big CNC: 100k (bodies, necks, fretboards, large plastic bits)
Small CNC: 10k (neck carve only)
Laser: 12k
Sliding table saw: 12k
Widebelt: 15k
Planer: 6k (used)
Spraybooth: 3-4k
Dust collection: 5-10k (no idea really by the time you add it all up)
Buffer: 1k
Small table saw: 1k

That's just the big tools. There's nearly 30 years of tool collecting at my shop and god knows how much I've spent on guitar specific small hand tools.

That's just my costs to have bought them. Keeping them running continues to require expenses (tools, maintenance ect).

Then you have expendables: sand paper, router bits, all of the finishing materials, solder, wire, wood, tape, glue, spray booth filters ect. These are all recurring monthly expenses.

Then I have rent (a lot), city, state and federal fee's, taxes and other charges (a lot), electricity, insurance (personal and coverage for the shop itself), internet, phone, alarm and other related permits.

Advertising (print, social media AND websites), trade shows, travel and events.

Then on top of all that I have to be: CEO, secretary, bookkeeper, logistics manager, HR, shipping department, answer the phone (60-90 minutes a day), answer an average of 50 emails day, social media manager, tech support and somewhere way down the list a father and a husband.

This barely touches all of it. BARELY. There are so many expenses I honestly can't remember them all. Oh and remember this, when you are looking at one of my guitars at a dealer, that means I made significantly less on that guitar (hopefully made up by volume but rarely is at my level).

So next time you look at the price of a guitar, before you scoff, if it wasn't built by slave labor in China then you should consider this list first. :wink:
 
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For me, the question comes down to exactly what is the real difference between a piece of wood whittled down to an exquisite piece over countless hours, and one cut to exacting specs on a CNC in a few minutes. What, when all the basic hardware; bridge, tuners, pickups and electronics are accounted for, separates a $500 dollar guitar from a $3000 guitar from a $10,000 guitar? At some point the value goes from tangible to ethereal. Once the wood is shaped and smooth, the frets are smooth and level, and the guitar plays perfectly, what is the real difference?

I am in no way making light of all the hard work that he or other builders put into the guitars they build, but somewhere along the line it just seems like some of them charge as much as they believe they can. What makes a $5000 custom worth roughly twice as much as Doug charges for his?

This is more arbitrary. My prices are 'expensive' by most standards on here but as I think I explained above, I probably should be charging double. I want to keep my prices as reasonable as I can (without losing too much money!) because I empathize about the prices. Now when you start getting into 10k and up, you are moving in different circles.

Is a Ken Parker archtop "worth" 30k? Sure. The amount of thought, design and innovation in that guitar is staggering. Would I pay 30k for one (with my current "salary")? Nope but that's because I don't personally dig archtop guitars in general but I'm never going to judge anyone for owning one. A friend does and he explained it best: "When I was looking at it, I had 30k in guitars in my house I've bought over the years that I would trade all away in a heartbeat for that one Parker. So that's what I did" Makes sense to me.

Frankly, for the people who send me a hundred emails that require specific answers then bitch about the price at the end really annoy me. The reality is, if you REALLY want one of my guitars then don't bitch about the price, set some priorities in your life to make it happen. Skip starbucks or the bar or going out to eat or buying model trains or whatever your hobby is a couple times a month. You'd be amazed how often you'll spend 50 bucks here or a 100 bucks there when you don't have a goal.

Remember this rule my realtor once told me: Your house (guitar) is worth whatever someone will pay for it. People buy Parkers and Ken is totally content to do 4 a year. That's awesome. People buy 8k Huber's with out blinking and Nik has a 500 guitar back log. FIVE HUNDRED. 2.5 years at their current production. I have 39 guitars on order as of today and for me, 39 is great to have on order at one point in time.

So the price of a guitar that's selling is obviously the right price. :wink:
 
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