a reasonable discussion of the short neck tenon

And I though my strap button placement fixation was irrational. :tongue:



I honestly don't know. The short tennon seems like enough meat to me provided it's solid across the bottom. That one pic with the round bottom is not good. However, unlike a fender, the sides are also glued, so solid surface area is greatly increased there.
The short tennon looks as long or longer than a fender joint, which seems to work ok even with just screws holding it together, which still seems like a cheap shortcut in favor of faster, less skilled production.

I could see gibson using that rocker joint to make it easier to set neck angles, but, again, that looks like a shortcut to good joinery.

I KNOW my tele has a good joint. That mofo is tight enough that I had to bang the hell out of it to get it apart.
 
Elias Graves said:
I could see gibson using that rocker joint to make it easier to set neck angles, but, again, that looks like a shortcut to good joinery.
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my entire contention is that the rocker joint actually prevents good joinery by allowing for play on the surface that needs the most contact. given today's CNC methods, no instrument should need the rocker joint because they come out of the machine identical to eachother. it should be a snug fit at the proper angle every time. remove that, and the whole issue goes away.
 
Help!I'maRock! said:
my entire contention is that the rocker joint actually prevents good joinery by allowing for play on the surface that needs the most contact. given today's CNC methods, no instrument should need the rocker joint because they come out of the machine identical to eachother. it should be a snug fit at the proper angle every time. remove that, and the whole issue goes away.
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THAT I agree with.
 
My dad has messed around with neck tendons quite a bit. He actually settled on bringing it back all the way in-between the neck and bridge pickup. It create more sustain and a more solid neck from what we've found.

I'maRock's right too, there have been less issues with the neck needing adjusted with the long tendon then with shorter ones he's used. Although I don't think he's ever put a rocker-joint in one.
 
Help!I'maRock! said:
my entire contention is that the rocker joint actually prevents good joinery by allowing for play on the surface that needs the most contact. given today's CNC methods, no instrument should need the rocker joint because they come out of the machine identical to eachother. it should be a snug fit at the proper angle every time. remove that, and the whole issue goes away.
Click to expand...

Gibson did it on the 2008.5 series standards, so it isn't like they can't do it. I got the impression form places like TGP that purists hated the top neck tenon on the new standard.
 
Help!I'maRock! said:
now do you get why i won't buy a production line Gibson?
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It amazes me how shoddy Gibson's quality is now. I have picked up many Gibson's that have bad neck sets and what not on them. I've played some that I have to retune every 2 minutes and finally give up and move to another guitar in the store. I'm baffled at the fact that I'm playing a $1000 guitar that won't make it through the main riff of Funk 49 a few times before the G string takes a half step dive down. :(
 
Tiltsta said:
Gibson did it on the 2008.5 series standards, so it isn't like they can't do it. I got the impression form places like TGP that purists hated the top neck tenon on the new standard.
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the top neck tenon was on the Standard for 20 years. when it was redesigned in '08, Gibson gave it a keyed extended tenon (i posted the pic later in the thread). then, due to public demand, Gibson reissued the old Standard as the Traditional. the Traditional, and all other USA production LPs below it, use the short version. the New Standard is the only Gibson to use the keyed extended tenon. all Historics use the long tenon.
 
I think it would be interesting to see the cross section of a glued up production rocker tenon....to get a true sense if that pic represents actual production tolerances on that mortise and tenon. I understand why they would want to use a rocker style tenon and then jig it to set the angle but that seems like an extreme amount of adjustment gap in the pic, beyond what they should practically need. In practical terms, a short tenon itself isn't a huge deal since you still have plenty of surface contact for a stable joint. Adding the 'rocker' tenon to the mix opens the issue but really, how much so?
 
k4df4l said:
I think it would be interesting to see the cross section of a glued up production rocker tenon....to get a true sense if that pic represents actual production tolerances on that mortise and tenon. I understand why they would want to use a rocker style tenon and then jig it to set the angle but that seems like an extreme amount of adjustment gap in the pic, beyond what they should practically need. In practical terms, a short tenon itself isn't a huge deal since you still have plenty of surface contact for a stable joint. Adding the 'rocker' tenon to the mix opens the issue but really, how much so?
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that would indeed be interesting.

"how much so" is the answer i'm searching for. to this point, my solution has been "any amount is too much".
 
Help!I'maRock! said:
that would indeed be interesting.

"how much so" is the answer i'm searching for. to this point, my solution has been "any amount is too much".
Click to expand...

Since you're not going to get precision hand fit mortise and tenon joints at production guitar prices, I'd much rather have a precise CNC'd joint than some slop joint, backfilled with glue then set in a jig to achieve the proper angle on the finish product....that's the kinda technique that people would crucify an import guitar for using.
 
This thread makes my head hurt. Since I will probably never buy a Les Paul, I don't care if they attach the necks with paper clips. Have fun with this argument Gibson folk.
 
k4df4l said:
Since you're not going to get precision hand fit mortise and tenon joints at production guitar prices, I'd much rather have a precise CNC'd joint than some slop joint, backfilled with glue then set in a jig to achieve the proper angle on the finish product....that's the kinda technique that people would crucify an import guitar for using.
Click to expand...

this is obviously a much higher priced rosewood neck model. but it was the same joint on every set neck production guitar they made for 25 years, including mine, which i paid as much as an LP Traditional for:

dsc00122.jpg
 
IIRC David from Suhr mentioned that they are starting to do set neck instruments. That should be interesting.
 
Mark Wein said:
IIRC David from Suhr mentioned that they are starting to do set neck instruments. That should be interesting.
Click to expand...

oops. looks like I'm two years behind on that one :embarrassed:

http://www.suhrguitars.com/LE2010.aspx

[h=1]Suhr Custom 2010 Limited Edition[/h]Suhr Guitars continues to push the envelope of modern electric guitar design with the introduction of the 2010 Limited Edition and this isn't just another version of the Modern. It is a whole new direction for Suhr with set-neck construction for a whole new sound and feel as well as amazing looks.

Meticulously designed and engineered by John Suhr from the ground up to provide maximum resonance and neck-body joint stability, the 2010 LE imparts noticeably different tonal characteristics and tactile response from its bolt-on counterparts.We are excited to offer this new design to discriminating players and collectors of fine instruments. Only 125 of these exquisite instruments will be built in 2010 as we embark on a long-term plan to offer a wide variety of set-neck instruments in the future. The set-neck guitar simply feels and sounds different than the bolt-on with its own unique characteristics and properties. You will feel and hear the difference immediately.

It's not necessarily "better" than a bolt-on but different in a good way. As the first set-neck model from Suhr, the 2010 LE promises to become a valuable collector's piece as well as an incredible musical instrument to be played and enjoyed for generations to come.

2010 LE Quilt - Top #1
2010 LE - Fretboard Inlay

2010 LE - Top #2
2010 LE - Side

2010 LE - Top #3
2010 LE - Back #1

2010 LE - Back #2
2010 LE - Back #3

2010 LE - Back #4

2010 LE - Top #4
2010 LE - Back #5
 
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