Question: When is it OK to perform for free?

We limit the number of unpaid gigs we do in a year.... maybe 2 or 3 out of 50 or so. Those have to be either a) excellent exposure like when we were on TV a couple times, b) for or with good friends like sharing a gig or the cancer benefit we did last year, or c) if it's not a huge effort. I've set up equipment a few hours early for a show so some friends could play a set or two before our show, or I've played for tips filling in for a friend who was delayed. There's definitely an effort/reward scale. I generally will not load up my PA and drive anywhere for less than $100 a head.

I'm baffled when people want you to play a 3 hour show "for exposure". Unreal. :facepalm:
 
There were some clubs here in the early 2000's that you had to play for free the first time. It was an audition of sorts. They want to make sure you draw a decent crowd before handing you a pile of cash.
 
Chad said:
There were some clubs here in the early 2000's that you had to play for free the first time. It was an audition of sorts. They want to make sure you draw a decent crowd before handing you a pile of cash.
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I still think that methodology is flawed. I could understand paying a smaller amount the first time, or having your first gig be a wednesday night or something to hear if you are decent, but basing your bookability on the crowd you draw tells me that the club isn't interested in doing any marketing or advertising, just how many bodies YOU can bring them.

One of our most recent bookings happened because we were out watching some of our good friends play at a club we had never been at before, and they called us up to do a couple songs with them. There was a guy out in the audience who owns a bar in a nearby city. He grabbed us after that show and booked us for his club on the spot.
 
baimun said:
I still think that methodology is flawed. I could understand paying a smaller amount the first time, or having your first gig be a wednesday night or something to hear if you are decent, but basing your bookability on the crowd you draw tells me that the club isn't interested in doing any marketing or advertising, just how many bodies YOU can bring them.

One of our most recent bookings happened because we were out watching some of our good friends play at a club we had never been at before, and they called us up to do a couple songs with them. There was a guy out in the audience who owns a bar in a nearby city. He grabbed us after that show and booked us for his club on the spot.
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Isn't it your job as the band to bring the bodies? Why else would a bar pay you? They can stick a jukebox in the corner where people can choose their songs done by the actual artist, especially if you are a cover band. I know I wouldn't want to pay a band that doesn't bring a crowd, I could have an empty bar with no band and save the pay. I think the most fair way to do it, is stick a guy with the band at the door to collect the cover and the band gets the cover. That is how they did it when I was in college, you got 100% of the door and nothing else. You drew a big crowd, you made some cash, if you didn't, you and the bar lost.
 
Chad said:
Isn't it your job as the band to bring the bodies? Why else would a bar pay you? They can stick a jukebox in the corner where people can choose their songs done by the actual artist, especially if you are a cover band. I know I wouldn't want to pay a band that doesn't bring a crowd, I could have an empty bar with no band and save the pay. I think the most fair way to do it, is stick a guy with the band at the door to collect the cover and the band gets the cover. That is how they did it when I was in college, you got 100% of the door and nothing else. You drew a big crowd, you made some cash, if you didn't, you and the bar lost.
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If you're doing cover band gigs it looks good to bring people in but if the venue is depending on it then they're doing something wrong.
 
Mark Wein said:
If you're doing cover band gigs it looks good to bring people in but if the venue is depending on it then they're doing something wrong.
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So if a band doesn't bring a crowd, why hire them? I personally have never played a bar where the bar paid us, we got the door and a tab.
 
The band should definitely be bringing in a steady crowd of fans.... but I've encountered places that do ZERO self promotion, no facebook page, not even a sign outside saying "Live music Tonight"... more like a restaurant that hires you and if you don't fill the place, the regulars are just irritated that someone is making noise in "their place". I feel like it's half band, half venue.... so we always look to bring half of the crowd and convert the other half to fans.
 
I would think that the venue should be a happenin' place that people like to hang out at, minimum. The band shouldn't be expected to bring everybody.
 
Chad said:
So if a band doesn't bring a crowd, why hire them? I personally have never played a bar where the bar paid us, we got the door and a tab.
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In a well run place, we help fill out their crowd but more importantly we entertain and keep the people in there spending money for the whole evening. I haven't worked for a door fee since I was in college and the only time we play for anything other than a flat guarantee is when it's a guarantee and a percentage of the bar. There's only one place that we do that in too since it tends to double our guarantee. You really can't expect a band of musicians who play well enough to do what we do and play regularly enough to be good to continually draw full rooms when you are playing in the same geographic region all the time. Unlike college students we can't keep browbeating our friends and family to come out to a bar in their middle age (and older :embarrassed:). Folks will come out to see us play but we'll add 15-20 people to the bar. When a bar manager or owner expects us to bring in 80-100 people a night I know he is either desperate or is usually booking rock bands or amateur cover bands that play 3-4 times a year and can make it a big social event for their friends. The math is just different as we get older and if you are a professional musician you can't rely on things like the door and a dinner tab. Hopefully we provide value for the money we are paid. Since we are booked pretty regularly I think we must on some level.
 
Mark Wein said:
In a well run place, we help fill out their crowd but more importantly we entertain and keep the people in there spending money for the whole evening. I haven't worked for a door fee since I was in college and the only time we play for anything other than a flat guarantee is when it's a guarantee and a percentage of the bar. There's only one place that we do that in too since it tends to double our guarantee. You really can't expect a band of musicians who play well enough to do what we do and play regularly enough to be good to continually draw full rooms when you are playing in the same geographic region all the time. Unlike college students we can't keep browbeating our friends and family to come out to a bar in their middle age (and older :embarrassed:). Folks will come out to see us play but we'll add 15-20 people to the bar. When a bar manager or owner expects us to bring in 80-100 people a night I know he is either desperate or is usually booking rock bands or amateur cover bands that play 3-4 times a year and can make it a big social event for their friends. The math is just different as we get older and if you are a professional musician you can't rely on things like the door and a dinner tab. Hopefully we provide value for the money we are paid. Since we are booked pretty regularly I think we must on some level.
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I think we are discussing two different things. You are playing the same bars over and over. The owners know your band and what it brings. I was talking about playing a show for free to show your worth so to speak in order to get regular shows. I wouldn't play the same bar every other week for free, but if I had to do the first show for free to show them my worth, I would.
 
DJing I'll do 1 charity gig a year for an organisation my dad is a member of and I support, apart from that nothing.

A freebie is a months mortgage payment I'm potentially passing up...
 
Chad said:
I think we are discussing two different things. You are playing the same bars over and over. The owners know your band and what it brings. I was talking about playing a show for free to show your worth so to speak in order to get regular shows. I wouldn't play the same bar every other week for free, but if I had to do the first show for free to show them my worth, I would.
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If you take the first gig for free, you're devaluing yourself in the bars eyes.

Relationships tend to go poorly when one party needs the other more. Bars tend to have the attitude that musicians need them more, and with the way most act, that might be true, but it's bad for business and quite frankly not true.

As a musician, when you learn to keep yourself working without depending on bars, it makes it a whole easier to tell them no when they pull some kind of bullshit like this.

In an ideal scenario musicians and bars have a symbiotic relationship.

There are subtle things you can do to help facilitate that wort of rapport. One good example is when you show up and the bartender or whoever asks you what you're doing, don't say I'm playing tonight, tell them I'm working tonight. It might seem small, but it makes a difference.
 
Open mic-solo or duo
Charity-occasionally
1st gig-Tryout situation for a new band for a spot on rotation, slot at festival, etc.
Edit-I mean an audition, not a full gig.
 
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rhino said:
If you take the first gig for free, you're devaluing yourself in the bars eyes.

Relationships tend to go poorly when one party needs the other more. Bars tend to have the attitude that musicians need them more, and with the way most act, that might be true, but it's bad for business and quite frankly not true.

As a musician, when you learn to keep yourself working without depending on bars, it makes it a whole easier to tell them no when they pull some kind of bullshit like this.

In an ideal scenario musicians and bars have a symbiotic relationship.

There are subtle things you can do to help facilitate that wort of rapport. One good example is when you show up and the bartender or whoever asks you what you're doing, don't say I'm playing tonight, tell them I'm working tonight. It might seem small, but it makes a difference.
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It is very true that bands need bars more than the bar needs them, at least it has been everywhere I have ever been in a band. You have 5 bars in town with live music and 100 bands trying to get a gig. It is supply and demand.

I'm not sure why a bar would pay a band that they have never seen before, unless they let them keep the door. Would you hire an employee where you couldn't verify their experience? Or check their references?
 
Chad said:
It is very true that bands need bars more than the bar needs them, at least it has been everywhere I have ever been in a band. You have 5 bars in town with live music and 100 bands trying to get a gig. It is supply and demand.

I'm not sure why a bar would pay a band that they have never seen before, unless they let them keep the door. Would you hire an employee where you couldn't verify their experience? Or check their references?
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I specifically said musicians not bands or bar bands so we might be talking about two different things. You can make damn good money playing on the right street corner a couple times a week. You can play at a library, coffee shops, etc... As musicians if we limit ourselves to bars, we are missing out on some cool opportunities and giving them the upper hand. Fuck em. We don't need em.

There are ways to show what you can do without doing a job for free. Reputation goes along way. Press, youtube, facebook all work.

If it's someone I don't know and they ask me for a song list, I laugh and tell them I'm probably not what they're looking for.
 
rhino said:
I specifically said musicians not bands or bar bands so we might be talking about two different things. You can make damn good money playing on the right street corner a couple times a week. You can play at a library, coffee shops, etc... As musicians if we limit ourselves to bars, we are missing out on some cool opportunities and giving them the upper hand. Fuck em. We don't need em.

There are ways to show what you can do without doing a job for free. Reputation goes along way. Press, youtube, facebook all work.

If it's someone I don't know and they ask me for a song list, I laugh and tell them I'm probably not what they're looking for.
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When I was in gigging bands, I could have given them song lists, but they wouldn't have any idea what they were since they were all originals.
 
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