Using AI as a songwriting tool

[rsadasiv]

I like to think of myself as organically stupid

I think of you and organic and plenty smart, but feel free to self-identify as you see fit.

Leaving aside your opinion on AI as a creator, what do you think of the examples above as a consumer? Does it pass your Turing test? Is it immediately/unsatisfyingly identifiable as bot slop? Are polished AI generated demos worse than unpolished artisanal demos propped up by non-AI tooling?

 

[Bones McHorror]

I think of you and organic and plenty smart, but feel free to self-identify as you see fit.

Leaving aside your opinion on AI as a creator, what do you think of the examples above as a consumer? Does it pass your Turing test? Is it immediately/unsatisfyingly identifiable as bot slop? Are polished AI generated demos worse than unpolished artisanal demos propped up by non-AI tooling?

The examples all sounded like dog doo. Bad lyrics, worse music.

 

[rsadasiv]

The examples all sounded like dog doo. Bad lyrics, worse music.

Noted. To clarify the width of the brush you are painting with, most of the examples above are human generated lyrics with AI generated music. Are both components bad in the same way? Asking for a friend. https://suno.com/s/eYOifmHdznxG2XAz

 

[Chicken Man]

I think of you and organic and plenty smart, but feel free to self-identify as you see fit.

Leaving aside your opinion on AI as a creator, what do you think of the examples above as a consumer? Does it pass your Turing test? Is it immediately/unsatisfyingly identifiable as bot slop? Are polished AI generated demos worse than unpolished artisanal demos propped up by non-AI tooling?

I think I'm repeating myself, but it doesn't matter if it fools me or not. There's a sci -fi future where there's actual AI experiencing life and generating interpretations of that experience, and I'd be interested in hearing that. But having a language model spit out a distillation of a million other people's work doesn't inform me or my life experience in any way.

 

[rsadasiv]

I think I'm repeating myself, but it doesn't matter if it fools me or not. There's a sci -fi future where there's actual AI experiencing life and generating interpretations of that experience, and I'd be interested in hearing that. But having a language model spit out a distillation of a million other people's work doesn't inform me or my life experience in any way.

Your consistency is a good thing. You gave very similar input when I was posting these basement studio/bedroom producer demos on HC 20 years ago. Inauthenticity is the enemy, and it doesn’t matter if the tools are AI driven or not. Listening to your responses over the years I moved away from the artificiality of Dance Music For Grownups, and these days I play lot more live solo acoustic guitar, which people seem to like.

 

[rhino]

I think of you and organic and plenty smart, but feel free to self-identify as you see fit.

Leaving aside your opinion on AI as a creator, what do you think of the examples above as a consumer? Does it pass your Turing test? Is it immediately/unsatisfyingly identifiable as bot slop? Are polished AI generated demos worse than unpolished artisanal demos propped up by non-AI tooling?

Hmmmm, those are good questions. I’m pretty pinkies up when it comes to songwriting. There is plenty of stuff out there that is wildly popular that was definitely written by humans that I don’t care for because it wouldn’t pass my Turing test. The writing by committee thing that happens with a lot of big hits doesn’t really do it for me because everything tends to feel the same and it all starts to feel generic. Sometimes it hits because of a fantastic performance and I’ll still dig it, but it’s hard to give a definitive answer.

If you sent me a song that was totally done with AI, I might like it I might not. I don’t know that it’s possible to tell the difference since it’s all so subjective.

From my perspective, when I meet knew people and tell them I wrote this song, here’s where it came from, and no AI was used, they tend to appreciate it.

One of my buds that does the Nashville song writing thing on a big level told me 6 months back that lots of songwriters are shifting to doing their demos that way. He wasn’t for it or against it, just kind of stating that’s how it is. They like it because they don’t have to spend money on studio time and players to cut the tracks on the hope they get something picked up. That’s another reason I don’t like it. On the surface, it looks like it helps the little guy because you don’t have to pay as much money, but there’s that many more folks that aren’t getting paid either. Consolidation of wealth and all that.

 

[Bones McHorror]

Hmmmm, those are good questions. I’m pretty pinkies up when it comes to songwriting. There is plenty of stuff out there that is wildly popular that was definitely written by humans that I don’t care for because it wouldn’t pass my Turing test. The writing by committee thing that happens with a lot of big hits doesn’t really do it for me because everything tends to feel the same and it all starts to feel generic. Sometimes it hits because of a fantastic performance and I’ll still dig it, but it’s hard to give a definitive answer.

If you sent me a song that was totally done with AI, I might like it I might not. I don’t know that it’s possible to tell the difference since it’s all so subjective.

From my perspective, when I meet knew people and tell them I wrote this song, here’s where it came from, and no AI was used, they tend to appreciate it.

One of my buds that does the Nashville song writing thing on a big level told me 6 months back that lots of songwriters are shifting to doing their demos that way. He wasn’t for it or against it, just kind of stating that’s how it is. They like it because they don’t have to spend money on studio time and players to cut the tracks on the hope they get something picked up. That’s another reason I don’t like it. On the surface, it looks like it helps the little guy because you don’t have to pay as much money, but there’s that many more folks that aren’t getting paid either. Consolidation of wealth and all that.

How do they get away with doing their demos with AI?

Do they just cut the melody, chords, arranging out of the songwriting equation?

 

[Dexter Inferno]

FUCK NO. I don't care what anyone says. AI will be the death of creativity. And it's already pretty fucking bad. And Spotify in particular is driving this (but they'll never admit it).

Soon a lot of us will do a similar thing to what Queen did in the early 70's when they stated in their liner notes that they weren't using any synthezisers. We're going to have to point out we're not fucking cheating, and that we actually know what we're doing.

Sorry this whole AI thing these days really piss me off.

Edit: For me it's a personal (and pride) thing. I could never do that and pretend I wrote the thing. Because I know I can write a half decent song and play all the instruments.

 

[rhino]

How do they get away with doing their demos with AI?

Do they just cut the melody, chords, arranging out of the songwriting equation?

They write melody and lyric and tell the AI what they want instrumentation wise and they get a slicked up sounding demo. I’m not sure what particular platform they are using.

 

[Dogsinplastic]

If you are a lyricist who targets mainstream genres and who struggles to produce good sounding demos of your songs you should switch to Suno immediately.

If you are a digital artist in a music adjacent form (video) and you struggle to find suitable/available tracks to fit your project you should switch to Suno immediately.

If you use midi generators/samples/loops in your songwriting process you should try Suno and see how it fits with your workflow.

If you are a musician who creates melodies/chord progressions/arrangements but struggles with lyrics you should try ChatGPT or other LLM based tools for the lyrics and wait for a better GenAI DAW.

If you are a handcrafted artisan who does not need to increase output keep doing what you do and don’t worry about Suno.

Are you fucking with us, or is this something you believe?

 

[Dogsinplastic]

FUCK NO. I don't care what anyone says. AI will be the death of creativity. And it's already pretty fucking bad. And Spotify in particular is driving this (but they'll never admit it).

Soon a lot of us will do a similar thing to what Queen did in the early 70's when they stated in their liner notes that they weren't using any synthezisers. We're going to have to point out we're not fucking cheating, and that we actually know what we're doing.

Sorry this whole AI thing these days really piss me off.

Edit: For me it's a personal (and pride) thing. I could never do that and pretend I wrote the thing. Because I know I can write a half decent song and play all the instruments.

100% to the most 100%.

The part I bolded...

While I appreciate this point, that's a potential part of the issue too for some folks using AI for creative work. They can write the song and play guitar (or piano, bass, or anything other instrument), but they can't do what you or Stevie Wonder, Dave Grohl, Wolfgang Van Halen, and others can related to playing all of the other instruments they want either at all or not well enough to execute what they want. So, instead of bringing in other musicians to work it all out, they'll turn to AI.

Artists should be supporting and collaborating with each other. That said, I get that there's only so many projects that one likes, only so many that pay (far fewer still that pay decently), only so much money an artist might have to do collaborations, etc. But the you can be 100% sure that the tech bros and corporate CEOs aren't interested in protecting art and artists. If they can use generative AI to create the most pablum-y pablum and get fools to spend time listening to, watching, reading, etc. they will do that a million times over before supporting real artistic expression.

 

[Peen Simmons]

It totally makes sense that Nashville song floggers are using AI because that whole game is all about adhering to and tweaking a formula to try and get picked up by an industry with clear expectations for a certain kind of result.

I don’t give a fuck about most of that crap so I don’t really care if it’s made by robots for robots.

Honestly most popular music is dreck and it’s not like there’s a shortage of it.

I’ve never seen much point in trying to “make it” in whatever industry/scene/etc. and most bands who are pretty good and can draw what is reasonable for their little corner of things crap out before even getting to the next phase of tawdry exploitation and disappointment anyway—which is something I had a front row seat to doing rock journalism stuff whilst also being in a reasonably successful local band that fell at the first hurdle.

So if the world isn’t hurting for more pop music and making a living in pop music isn’t worth chasing, then there’s very little use in letting AI automate the fun stuff so you can spend more time doing promo on the internet.

I’m sure AI could do a reasonable simulation of what I do. Almost certainly would work faster and with less fuss. It might even stumble upon the same silly little ideas for mini concept albums and half-pilfered responses to Bowie and Springsteen as I do. I’m sure I could get Suno to write songs about existential dread that split the difference between Summer of Love folk rock and CBGB’s art punk. But ultimately I enjoy/benefit from/am compelled to waste time doing that. So it’s not super compelling to jump to the end and take credit for Super Computer Mad Libs that stole its version of what I do from a million uncredited artists.

 

[Peen Simmons]

Okay, I gave Suno a prompt based on my own reductive appraisal of what I do (song about teenage vampires shoplifting from the convenience store that splits the difference between the summer of love and CBGB art punk with quirky tenor vocals) and this is the four options it gave me. It sounds like the least imaginative NME band of all time. I hate it. Also, I think I owe royalties to the fucking Fratellis or some shit now.

Blood and Bubblegum

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

Blood and Bubblegum

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

Fangs and Candy Bars

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

Fangs and Candy Bars

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

Like school in summertime. No class. Livejournal backwash in a Warped Tour portojohn.

 

[rsadasiv]

Are you fucking with us, or is this something you believe?

Serious as a heart attack? I’m not fucking with anyone and this is not a matter of belief. Use your senses and first hand experience, apply rational thought, draw conclusions as an individual, and then see if those conclusions apply universally.

 

[Peen Simmons]

Serious as a heart attack? I’m not fucking with anyone and this is not a matter of belief. Use your senses and first hand experience, apply rational thought, draw conclusions as an individual, and then see if those conclusions apply universally.

Here’s a track from my upcoming album entitled FUCK THIS FORUM on WTF?!?! INAPPROPRIATE RECORDS.

Man vs Machine

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

 

[Peen Simmons]

They write melody and lyric and tell the AI what they want instrumentation wise and they get a slicked up sounding demo. I’m not sure what particular platform they are using.

According to all the social media Suno ads that I now get thanks to mystixboi and this fucking thread, you can upload lyrics, melodies, parts, etc. and ask the engine to build around that. You can also get more granular with arrangement notes and edit what it spits out.

I’ve not messed with it because I don’t care, but I reckon that with a paid account and some familiarity with the workflow a somewhat speedy lyricist with decent one-handed keyboard skills for picking out melodies could churn out a massive pile of demos in a day in your more formulaic genres.

I know that various AI bros have tried to build monetizable streaming music careers doing prompt-based music and have hit the same brick wall that meat-space musicians and songwriters hit—no one gives a fuck and no one wants to listen to your fucking tracks.

I suppose that these tools might be more useful for commercial songwriter types because they’re just looking to get the ideas in front of the people who will get them in front of the people who will get them to an artist. And Nashville will do what Nashville does once someone puts the lines about Jesus, booty shorts, trucks, momma, and liquor in the right order.

 

[Peen Simmons]

So I uploaded some trash lyrics and a dippy little 17 second phone piano melody thing and it was able to turn it into this.

My Song 2 (Extend)

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

So it’s very adept at turning junk into trash.

 

[rsadasiv]

Here’s a track from my upcoming album entitled FUCK THIS FORUM on WTF?!?! INAPPROPRIATE RECORDS.

Man vs Machine

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

I’m tempted to re-write the rationalists screed so that it scans better, and “keep it clean” feels like a missed opportunity, but that’s not bad, and the label name is top shelf.

 

[rsadasiv]

Writing a novel with ChatGPT.

ChatGPT is a great reader, a meh editor, and a mediocre writer. As a reader it accurately (and flatteringly) summarizes structure, plot, character, and theme. As an editor it consistently merges contrast down to a bland median, and as a writer it seems to have been mostly trained on fan-fic.

 

[Peen Simmons]

Writing a novel with ChatGPT.

ChatGPT is a great reader, a meh editor, and a mediocre writer. As a reader it accurately (and flatteringly) summarizes structure, plot, character, and theme. As an editor it consistently merges contrast down to a bland median, and as a writer it seems to have been mostly trained on fan-fic.

Really? I’ve had it read an analyze lyrics I’ve written and it gives stuff a lot of unearned credit and is way too flattering. A lot of the stuff it picks up on in terms of allusion and theme and symbolism can be traced back to earlier chats and questions via some pretty obvious breadcrumbs.

I wouldn’t trust it to generate anything meaningful as it has terrible taste and just reflects yourself back at you. And even when it comes to compiling basic info and plans for dull as dirt work stuff that it totally can and should be able to do, it’s about as good at its job as a hungover intern. And then when you insult it for being about as good as a hungover intern it laughs at your bad/mean joke and tells you how clever you are.

I’ve messed with ChatGPT and other basic tools mostly because my peers at work (like all rich old men who love money and hate reading) swear that it is amazing and I’m constantly catching and fixing their dreck. So I decided to educate myself a bit and get to know the tools. It’s most useful when you give it an example and tell it to build another with different variables—and only if the info/variables are low stakes.

It can also do things like give you an astrological chart reading—though it gets plenty of basic details wrong. And it can pull lists of RIYL type things or read through guitar forum nonsense to scrape out specs and details about pickup construction.

But it’s a silly substitute for a smart, creative person really trying to understand or communicate. Which is probably why business dweebs love it because they can’t tell the difference between a job done well and a job done poorly.

Seems like a dangerous tool if you’re not a cripplingly cynical jerk. Because it’s not super correct about stuff and it’s always trying to toss you off.