Dig it! Jeff Kiesel rips Gibson a new one!
- Thread starter OGG
- Start date
Knox in Box
Rustbelt refugee.
Like this content so that I see it later in my sales when I have wifi.
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
I get that Kiesel is trying to milk as much publicity out of getting a C&D from Gibson as possible but at this point, the list of what medium to large MFGs that haven’t received one is probably smaller than those that have.
Gibson’s tactic has nothing to do with being legally sound but everything to do with knowing most builders are going to balk at spending money to actually defend themselves in court. It costs them next to nothing to fire off a letter. Is it shitty? Yes.
Gibson’s tactic has nothing to do with being legally sound but everything to do with knowing most builders are going to balk at spending money to actually defend themselves in court. It costs them next to nothing to fire off a letter. Is it shitty? Yes.
VoidTerraFirma
Live to wine
Team Kiesel.
reverend1
Kick Henry Jackassowski
It actually has to do with how the finances my for their restructuring was secured. They have no choice but to sue.
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
What about all the years and C&D's that went out prior to that?
Jbird
Kick Henry Jackassowski
Kiesel's (Carvin's) Ultra V has been out since 1986?
How is suing a company that has been making that model for 34 years, and nine years before Gibson trademarked the shape (not 'til 1995, according to Jeff in the above video) and which the judge will laugh out of court going to help Gibson's finances?
How is suing a company that has been making that model for 34 years, and nine years before Gibson trademarked the shape (not 'til 1995, according to Jeff in the above video) and which the judge will laugh out of court going to help Gibson's finances?
Help!I'maRock!
Mediocringly Derivative
It’s not. Nevertheless...
reverend1
Kick Henry Jackassowski
No insight there.
The new company was partially financed using their trademarks as collateral. The note holders are demanding they in force the trademarks in order so maintain the value of their collateral. That is also where the ill fated licensing scheme came from. Fortunately, only one company fell for it and has since withdrawn from the agreement. Ceasar is a managing partner of the lien holders and is spearheading the rash of C&D’s.
unfortunately for Gibson, they lost a lagacy suit against Framous and they will more than likely lose to Dean too. The trademarks they are trying to pump up will ultimately be worthless.
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
reverend1
Kick Henry Jackassowski
No idea about anything previous to the restructuring.
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
My point being this isn't something that started post restructuring but a business strategy they have employed for well over a decade
Ignored Member
Neutered male
This makes sense. If you don’t attempt to protect a trademark, you lose the ability to do so later.
Gibson has to do this to meet their obligations. They probably know their position may not be strong. If the court rules against them, they can say they tried.
Help!I'maRock!
Mediocringly Derivative
Yep. Reality is, they’re gonna lose big. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, even dogs know it. But they have to. Sucks for everyone.
OGG
Master of the Meh
I'm not a Kiesel fanboi, but I can't claim to be totally impartial either since I have a personal relationship with the company and with Jeff. I can be objective though.
Jeff isn't "Milking" anything here. He was asked to do an interview. He obliged. Everything he said in regards to the letter vs the trademark date vs the length of time Carvin/Kiesel has offered that model is accurate. Gibson having an obligation to it's shareholders and to follow a strategy of enforcing trademarks doesn't factor here. At least... not legally. Had the lawyers etc done their homework before threatening litigation, they would never have sent that letter. They have no legal leg to stand on here. That much is virtually incontestable. What they have done, is to wander blindly into a minefield that could be very damaging. California has very strong laws regarding frivolous litigation, and could very well slap the stupid out of them if they were to proceed with any litigation. Gibson also just shot themselves in the foot again when it comes to their reputation. They made themselves look like assholes again. A company that despite already bankrupting themselves by following this exact path and putting their sole focus on branding while their products quality and desirability keeps plummeting, is obviously unfazed by their own harsh reality.
They've given a small company a huge boost in positive publicity. This is a win/win for Kiesel and everyone else being targeted by an out of control bully.
Jeff ain't scared. I know him, and he's anything but scared. From a legal perspective he only stands to gain bigly here.
This is an example of corporations getting so hung up on "policy", that they forget policy does not equal "law'.
As usual, the biggest losers here are the musicians who just want Gibson to go back to being a respected builder of quality instruments. It's become abundantly clear that such is never going to happen.
Jeff isn't "Milking" anything here. He was asked to do an interview. He obliged. Everything he said in regards to the letter vs the trademark date vs the length of time Carvin/Kiesel has offered that model is accurate. Gibson having an obligation to it's shareholders and to follow a strategy of enforcing trademarks doesn't factor here. At least... not legally. Had the lawyers etc done their homework before threatening litigation, they would never have sent that letter. They have no legal leg to stand on here. That much is virtually incontestable. What they have done, is to wander blindly into a minefield that could be very damaging. California has very strong laws regarding frivolous litigation, and could very well slap the stupid out of them if they were to proceed with any litigation. Gibson also just shot themselves in the foot again when it comes to their reputation. They made themselves look like assholes again. A company that despite already bankrupting themselves by following this exact path and putting their sole focus on branding while their products quality and desirability keeps plummeting, is obviously unfazed by their own harsh reality.
They've given a small company a huge boost in positive publicity. This is a win/win for Kiesel and everyone else being targeted by an out of control bully.
Jeff ain't scared. I know him, and he's anything but scared. From a legal perspective he only stands to gain bigly here.
This is an example of corporations getting so hung up on "policy", that they forget policy does not equal "law'.
As usual, the biggest losers here are the musicians who just want Gibson to go back to being a respected builder of quality instruments. It's become abundantly clear that such is never going to happen.
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
Milking it is a good thing in this case...take your fight to the court of public opinion where you’re leveraging social media before you have to spend a penny of your own money on your lawyer.....but in this case, it’ll probably be irreverent.
Gibson is already suing Dean for the explorer and V shape use as well as the hummingbird & modern name and use of similar HS to the dove wing. Dean’s parent company has filed a counter suit and the case has not gone to court yet. IP lawyers that have weighed in speculate that Gibson doesn’t have a leg to stand on but that ain’t stopping them.
They’ll lose this just like the lost the single cut lawsuit against PRS. PRS was the first time someone had the cash to fight back in court after numerous C&Ds to other single cut mfgs.
Litigate Authentic
Gibson is already suing Dean for the explorer and V shape use as well as the hummingbird & modern name and use of similar HS to the dove wing. Dean’s parent company has filed a counter suit and the case has not gone to court yet. IP lawyers that have weighed in speculate that Gibson doesn’t have a leg to stand on but that ain’t stopping them.
They’ll lose this just like the lost the single cut lawsuit against PRS. PRS was the first time someone had the cash to fight back in court after numerous C&Ds to other single cut mfgs.
Litigate Authentic
Lerxst
spaghetti and blankets
Gabriel and Gibson say it was Echopark’s decision to stop the deal back in 2019 and reconsider starting it back up in 2020. Echopark is having it’s own problems with their image and delivery of acceptable guitars to customers right now so they seem to need to get their house in order before spinning off some licensed Gibsons.
Unless you have info that conflicts Gabriel’s interviews and the shitstorm of unhappy customers on the forums like TGP
Flamencology
You don't deserve koa.
reverend1
Kick Henry Jackassowski
I only know what I know from the attorneies dealing with the situation. Their assessment of the licensing proposal was that it was a way for them to increase the value of the trademarks. I don’t have any specific knowledge of the echo park situation other than they were the only company to bite and have since withdrawn.
baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
Despite my own personal dislike for the Kiesel products I've purchased, I completely support Jeff (and all smaller builders) standing up to fight against Gibson in this regard. There are many small builders who make great variations, and let's be honest... exact knock offs, of vintage instruments by various big builders but at the end of the day it should be the QUALITY of the work... not the vague outline of a shape from across the room (per the lawsuit PRS won).
For Gibson to try and pressure builders that are NOT doing exact clones just because they're in the appropriate geographic locations to send a C&D when they really would like to be getting the cheap "Chibson" knocks offs out of the market, it comes across as a desperate "kicking your neighbor's dog because you're angry at something from work" kind of moment.
For Gibson to try and pressure builders that are NOT doing exact clones just because they're in the appropriate geographic locations to send a C&D when they really would like to be getting the cheap "Chibson" knocks offs out of the market, it comes across as a desperate "kicking your neighbor's dog because you're angry at something from work" kind of moment.