mongooz
.
i would have to say that for most immigrants that come to the USA, quality of life here is quite a bit better than where they came from. so yea.....Q.o L. here would be one of the reasons for coming here.
OMG Politics, I'm over it already.
- Thread starter sunvalleylaw
- Start date
- Status
i would have to say that for most immigrants that come to the USA, quality of life here is quite a bit better than where they came from. so yea.....Q.o L. here would be one of the reasons for coming here.
wagdog
Ack
If you're referring to me, you would be wrong. I've traveled extensively outside the US. I lived in the UK for two years (courtesy of Uncle Sam) and traveled around Europe quite a bit. I've been to the middle east (again courtesy of Uncle) and Asia. I've been to both Mexico and Canada (often).
Just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean they're uneducated or not well traveled. It's quite possible, gasp, that they have a different opinion than you do. Strangely enough, in this case, the facts back up my assertion: more people who leave their country immigrate to the US than anywhere else on earth. People are paying $500,000 for green cards to move here.
And for what it's worth: I don't apologize for being American, I'm proud of it. Maybe that's passé these days, I don't give a crap.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
"Clinton supporters should stop bulling Bernie supporters." Personally, I agree. Would be nice to see something like leadership from HRC and/or her people by way of some sort of nod toward the concerns of the Bernie supporters, and some kind of invitation to join up and unite. Haven't really seen that yet. Just the step in line crap.
http://usuncut.com/politics/democrats-dnc-bullying-sanders/
http://usuncut.com/politics/democrats-dnc-bullying-sanders/
wok
Nasi Goreng Afficionado
nobody is saying you shouldn't.
But your assertion that the USA has the highest quality of life in the world is pertinently false. As I have shown. The fact that a lot of people from poor countries come to the USA for a better life doesn't change that. Also, your 'some people pay $500000 to get a greencard' has nothing to do with the standard of living. In fact, those amount of money would only be affordable to a few people who already have a lot of money, so it's unlikely their standard of living would improve much.
Again, nobody is saying the USA isn't a great country, but your assertion that it has the highest living standard in the world is false.
wagdog
Ack
Let me put it to you this way: the quality of life in the US is the best in the world according to me - and since I have in fact traveled a bit, I'm basing that on what I've experienced. Since I can control where I live, I choose to live in the US. The fact that several million people who also live here and could afford to go elsewhere but don't, also speaks to the fact that the quality of life here is excellent. There isn't a place on earth I'd rather be, and apparently a good percentage of 300+ million people agree with me.
Having traveled throughout Europe, I've been exposed to much anti-American sentiment - doesn't bother me in the least. The fact that citizens in other countries make a sport out of comparing themselves to America is very telling.
wok
Nasi Goreng Afficionado
As I expected, your argument isn't based on fact, but on a personal sense of national(ist) pride. While I don't share your sentiment (in fact, I think nationalism/patriottism is one of the reasons why the world is so fucked up, but that is another discussion), you're entitled to your opinion. Just don't present them as fact.
wagdog
Ack
The articles you presented put the US in the top 14 nations for quality of life based on their criteria, one of them has the US at #14, the other #12. The fact that the rankings don't coincide indicates that the criterion is arbitrary. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact.As I expected, your argument isn't based on fact, but on a personal sense of national(ist) pride. While I don't share your sentiment (in fact, I think nationalism/patriottism is one of the reasons why the world is so fucked up, but that is another discussion), you're entitled to your opinion. Just don't present them as fact.
My point is, what you presented isn't fact, it's a tally based on arbitrary criteria and possibly biased and based on opinion.
That said, feel free to accept that as fact - I don't. I like to make up my own mind. I obviously find nothing wrong with patriotism as well.
wok
Nasi Goreng Afficionado
wagdog
Ack
Didn't say facts be damned. When you're looking at something subjective, like quality of life, they are a wide array of things to quantify and wide array of ways to affix value to them.
And thanks for proving my point: once again the USA is yardstick by which to measure other nations. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so many people prepared to tear it down verbally and otherwise.
Anyway, I can see this argument is getting circular. I'm really not that broken up about it to be honest. If the quality of life isn't the best in the world, wherever it falls certainly works for me and mine. Hopefully wherever you're at works for you.
Chad
Slender Hobbit
So why, other than people immigrate to the US, do you believe it is the best place to live?
Health care? Average paid vacation time from work? Average work week in hours? Cost of a college education? Quality of public education?
I'm not saying it isn't the best, I think at one time it may have been and there are certainly far worse countries to live in, but I think we are not the gold standard of countries anymore as far as quality of life. But I guess the US is a big country and maybe I just haven't found the right part of it yet.
wagdog
Ack
Fair question.
Health care is great... if you have it. This is certainly an area the US can and should improve. I do know that over in the border in Canada everyone has health coverage, but I've heard many stories related to timely access to it. Perhaps a Canadian here could inform us better?
Most people have jobs with PTO - no idea what the average is. Actually, I have no idea if this is actually true; everyone I know who has a job has some form of PTO.
A college education is expensive, but there are ways to afford it, particularly for people who are underprivileged. This is an area we can and should improve on as well. We do have excellent colleges and universities.
Public education is great, if a person accesses it to the fullest extent.
People are free to practice their religion without government interference.
We are fairly safe in the US: more people die from accidents than crime.
I'm probably missing quite a bit, but I think that's a good start.
mongooz
.
both of these are wrong. first states are passing laws every month making religion GOVERNMENT. North Carolina, Mississippi, Indiana (last year), Kentucky......read up on it.
health care is not great. i work for a 2 BILLION dollar profit corp. and the deductables have gotten to the point that I am paying for MY health care out of MY pocket, by the time i meet the fucking deductibles. and it's getting worse every year.
Chad
Slender Hobbit
I think if you did some digging, you would be surprised at how many folks don't have PTO. When you take time off, you don't get paid.
Healthcare here is good, if you aren't sick. Look up how many people file for bankruptcy due to medical bills and they aren't all uninsured.
My wife and I had over $100k in school loans when we graduated. We will be paying on those until we are in our 60s. Now I didn't start until later in life and she got a PhD (the PhD was paid for by the university but she had to defer payments on undergrad until she finished her PhD)
I think the US leads the world in deaths by firearms when you take out nations who have wars going on. I could be wrong on that, but I bet we are near the top.
as for religion, there are some laws being passed that may not interfere with your religious practice, they are forcing a particular religious view on others.
After working in the public school system for a number of years, having a father who worked until he retired as a high school principal, a brother who is s middle school teacher, a wife who used to teach high school and now is a college professor who teaches future teachers and supervises teaching internships, I can tell you, our public education can be great if the local school district is in a wealthy area. But in some areas, it is down right scary how bad they are.
i think there are some great places in the US to live, and there are some down right scary places. I think there are areas which we can massivly improve in and we must improve in those areas.
sunvalleylaw
Yep.
From 2009-2014, I did a lot of bankruptcies for people. The economic crash and the loss of blue collar jobs, and the failure of many small businesses in our area drove some of it, along with people getting over extended on home equity lines, etc. trying to keep their businesses and lives afloat (I know, not the best decision to take on that debt, but people will do such things trying to save their lives and businesses). But my first cases, the cases during the crash and very slow "recovery" (I still do not feel our area has really recovered), one of the consistent driving factors was medical bills. People were working 3 jobs at restaurants, resort, etc., or self employed, and had little or no insurance. They just could not service the medical debt. To the extent that "socialized medicine" means spreading the cost of health care for those that can't pay among others, we already have it. It is called "bankruptcy". The debt is discharged, and that cost is spread amongst others. We just are not honest about it.
jp_nyc
Kick Henry Jackassowski
Back to the topic of this thread (which is not us all arguing about immigration and nationalism)…
New York Magazine has posted a wonderful Andrew Sullivan essay about Trump. I only mean that it is wonderfully fun to read if you can rise above Sully being an utter cunt. This is Sullivan at his most passionate and eloquent. It’s also Sullivan at his most arrogant, self-aggrandizing, narcissistic, assuming, and demeaning. He rubs the reader’s nose in his freshman reading list to remind you that, yes, someone still reads books in this world. Part of me loves that at least someone (other than Ta-Nehisi Coates) is bothering to write well about US politics. Another part is annoyed that he’s just throwing out more of the ugly elitist rubbish that makes people want to vote for Trump.
New York Magazine has posted a wonderful Andrew Sullivan essay about Trump. I only mean that it is wonderfully fun to read if you can rise above Sully being an utter cunt. This is Sullivan at his most passionate and eloquent. It’s also Sullivan at his most arrogant, self-aggrandizing, narcissistic, assuming, and demeaning. He rubs the reader’s nose in his freshman reading list to remind you that, yes, someone still reads books in this world. Part of me loves that at least someone (other than Ta-Nehisi Coates) is bothering to write well about US politics. Another part is annoyed that he’s just throwing out more of the ugly elitist rubbish that makes people want to vote for Trump.
jp_nyc
Kick Henry Jackassowski
And, being Andrew Sullivan piece, an important piece of his argument is clueless/dishonest.
- Status